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Passing the baton
#3022650 09/07/20 11:41 PM
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Certain smaller piano manufacturers seem to have an individual who is the primary driving force behind the company, e.g. Indrek Laul at Estonia and Paolo Fazioli at Fazioli. Do these companies have well planned succession strategies or does anyone see a risk that quality may decline once the baton is passed? This is in contrast to much larger manufacturers like Yamaha or Steinway who are more "corporate" in their governance and structure, or even family owned piano makers where there are multiple individuals who were raised in the company and can keep the legacy going (not just one person).

Last edited by talkoftheweather; 09/07/20 11:42 PM.
Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3022667 09/08/20 01:59 AM
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Typically most private companies like that fall apart not long after the patriarch passes on. The offspring are usually more interested in cashing out their inheritance and sell off to the first corporation who wants the name to stick on their generic label products.

It’s a lucky firm that makes it beyond one younger generation.


-Bill L. - former tuner-technician
Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3022704 09/08/20 06:00 AM
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In the case of Fazioli, Paolo’s son, Luca, has been heavily involved in the operations of the company for several years. He seems very passionate about the family business.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
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Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3022751 09/08/20 09:03 AM
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Hopefully Dr Indrek Laul has created a lasting legacy and Estonia pianos with their distinctive singing tone will be around for awhile. But who really knows? The world has radically changed in recent years so who can say whether the piano companies today will last until our grandchildren are selecting a piano for their own children’s piano studies?


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
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Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3022763 09/08/20 09:26 AM
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富不过三代

It's always wiser in Chinese.

Larry.

Re: Passing the baton
j&j #3022810 09/08/20 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by j&j
Hopefully Dr Indrek Laul has created a lasting legacy and Estonia pianos with their distinctive singing tone will be around for awhile. But who really knows? The world has radically changed in recent years so who can say whether the piano companies today will last until our grandchildren are selecting a piano for their own children’s piano studies?
Indrek's 52 and is married with 2 sons (there's a six year old family picture at this link: https://estonianworld.com/people/indrek-laul-the-global-estonian-piano-man/). Hopefully, they will get involved in the family business and keep it going, but obviously that's in the future.


Steve Chandler
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Re: Passing the baton
Steve Chandler #3022831 09/08/20 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Originally Posted by j&j
Hopefully Dr Indrek Laul has created a lasting legacy and Estonia pianos with their distinctive singing tone will be around for awhile. But who really knows? The world has radically changed in recent years so who can say whether the piano companies today will last until our grandchildren are selecting a piano for their own children’s piano studies?
Indrek's 52 and is married with 2 sons (there's a six year old family picture at this link: https://estonianworld.com/people/indrek-laul-the-global-estonian-piano-man/). Hopefully, they will get involved in the family business and keep it going, but obviously that's in the future.

Very nice article, which does give us hope Estonia will continue to be made in the future. Besides the forerunner of the Estonia piano was Josef Stalin’s favorite and would make all the Soviet’s concert grands.

Petrof has a 7th generation now who can someday take over.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
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Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3022843 09/08/20 12:56 PM
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There's always a level of uncertainty in small family companies. My uncle took over my grandfather's business in the 1990s, and he had hoped his son, my cousin would take it over in the next five years, but my cousin isn't interested and so the business may close. That's a small business of course but it illustrates a point.

With piano makers, if they're successful, if nothing has been put in place then when the owner of the business dies, it will become part of their estate, and it will depend on exactly how the company is set up, who it has been left to, and whether or not that person wishes to continue the business, sell it, or wind it up.

In other words, who knows?

Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3022877 09/08/20 02:39 PM
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Interesting conversation.

I think it is all about preparation. Sometimes the worst thing you can do to your children is to leave them a business that they know little about and care for less. It becomes a mill stone around their neck.

In the case of Cunningham Piano Company, the sisters who owned the company and hired me thought about this. They had children involved, but nobody who had the drive, passion, or interest in running a family business. They knew that.

They first approached me years before I actually purchased the company. They watched me work, they taught me, they trusted me ( and I trusted them). Tim Oliver (also a long time employee) and I took over in 2008, but we had been running the company for years before that. We prepared for the date of purchase and, after closing, our attorney left with us and commented, "I have never seen a closing where the buyers and sellers hugged and kissed before leaving."

Although I have many years in business ahead of me, I am already thinking about the day that someone else will run Cunningham Piano Company.


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
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rich@cunninghampiano.com
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Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3022905 09/08/20 04:20 PM
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What I believe is fantastic news is that these small family-owned piano manufacturers still exist, and indeed seem to be thriving. Bechstein, Bluthner, Fazioli, Estonia, Petrof, Mason & Hamlin are out there making better and better pianos every year.

I am sure that Harvard Business School case studies of a few years ago would never have given them a chance : they would have seen the business monopolized by Steinway on one end, protected by its concertist monopoly, and cheap mass market asian manufacturers (although the piano market will never again be "mass" and the Japanese makers are no longer "cheap") on the other.

Will this renaissance of American and European brands carry on ? The days of the big factories are over, but piano making is not yet a cottage industry, like premium violins or harpsichords. On one hand the cost of entry is not high. You need expertise, and probably much of it has been simply transferred from old piano firm traditions, but machinery is simple except for the foundries making the cast iron harps. Many components can be sourced externally from the likes of Renner. Computer controlled wood cutting and finishing is no longer taboo, even at Fazioli. So the human factor can now been concentrated into highly-paid voicing, quality control, and marketing experts, rather than wood-working artisans. So, at least for top end products, the competitiveness of low asian labour costs can be overcome.

European brands are now in a race for top quality, which is the only way they can justify their manufacturing and marketing costs and therefore their prices. They will all arrange for second tier brands for their dealers, made in Asia.

I wonder what this bodes for Steinway's position. I believe the top Bechstein, Fazioli, Bosendorfer and Bluthner offerings of today are every bit as good, and the Petrof and Estonia will soon be. Does Steinway have a big cost advantage in their higher volumes (shared between two locations which negates some potential economies of scale) that they can use to fend off any challenge? Not sure. The great advantage of Steinway is its favoured status with concertists, and therefore with piano students, and therefore with institutions such as halls and conservatories. This favoured status is based on convenience more than anything else. A Steinway concertist knows she/he can depend on finding a superb instrument from Streinway without further trouble anywhere in the world he/she plays. The irony is that in Europe, Halls and Conservatories are heavily (in some cases totally) subsidized by taxpayer money. Taxes pay for Steinways.

So I think various factors, including politics, will aply to end or dent the Steinway monopoly, and we will see more Bechstein's at the Berliner and Bosendorfer's at the Wiener, if only for civic pride. I expect the Elbphilarmonie in Hamburg is safe for Steinway (sic).

I am by the way a huge Steinway fan and ordered a new one.

Last edited by Vikendios; 09/08/20 04:20 PM.


Steinway "A". Roland LX 706. Viscount Sonus 45 hybrid organ with 165 real pipes. Harpsichord by Marc Fontaine.
Re: Passing the baton
Vikendios #3023127 09/09/20 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Vikendios
What I believe is fantastic news is that these small family-owned piano manufacturers still exist, and indeed seem to be thriving. Bechstein, Bluthner, Fazioli, Estonia, Petrof, Mason & Hamlin are out there making better and better pianos every year.

I am sure that Harvard Business School case studies of a few years ago would never have given them a chance : they would have seen the business monopolized by Steinway on one end, protected by its concertist monopoly, and cheap mass market asian manufacturers (although the piano market will never again be "mass" and the Japanese makers are no longer "cheap") on the other.

Will this renaissance of American and European brands carry on ? The days of the big factories are over, but piano making is not yet a cottage industry, like premium violins or harpsichords. On one hand the cost of entry is not high. You need expertise, and probably much of it has been simply transferred from old piano firm traditions, but machinery is simple except for the foundries making the cast iron harps. Many components can be sourced externally from the likes of Renner. Computer controlled wood cutting and finishing is no longer taboo, even at Fazioli. So the human factor can now been concentrated into highly-paid voicing, quality control, and marketing experts, rather than wood-working artisans. So, at least for top end products, the competitiveness of low asian labour costs can be overcome.

European brands are now in a race for top quality, which is the only way they can justify their manufacturing and marketing costs and therefore their prices. They will all arrange for second tier brands for their dealers, made in Asia.

I wonder what this bodes for Steinway's position. I believe the top Bechstein, Fazioli, Bosendorfer and Bluthner offerings of today are every bit as good, and the Petrof and Estonia will soon be. Does Steinway have a big cost advantage in their higher volumes (shared between two locations which negates some potential economies of scale) that they can use to fend off any challenge? Not sure. The great advantage of Steinway is its favoured status with concertists, and therefore with piano students, and therefore with institutions such as halls and conservatories. This favoured status is based on convenience more than anything else. A Steinway concertist knows she/he can depend on finding a superb instrument from Streinway without further trouble anywhere in the world he/she plays. The irony is that in Europe, Halls and Conservatories are heavily (in some cases totally) subsidized by taxpayer money. Taxes pay for Steinways.

So I think various factors, including politics, will aply to end or dent the Steinway monopoly, and we will see more Bechstein's at the Berliner and Bosendorfer's at the Wiener, if only for civic pride. I expect the Elbphilarmonie in Hamburg is safe for Steinway (sic).

I am by the way a huge Steinway fan and ordered a new one.

First congratulations on your new Steinway! What did you order? I’ve always wanted a Steinway B. Which is highly unlikely to ever happen. I really enjoyed reading your post.

Last edited by j&j; 09/09/20 10:06 AM.

J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
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Re: Passing the baton
Vikendios #3023140 09/09/20 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Vikendios
I wonder what this bodes for Steinway's position. I believe the top Bechstein, Fazioli, Bosendorfer and Bluthner offerings of today are every bit as good, and the Petrof and Estonia will soon be. Does Steinway have a big cost advantage in their higher volumes (shared between two locations which negates some potential economies of scale) that they can use to fend off any challenge? Not sure. The great advantage of Steinway is its favoured status with concertists, and therefore with piano students, and therefore with institutions such as halls and conservatories. This favoured status is based on convenience more than anything else. A Steinway concertist knows she/he can depend on finding a superb instrument from Streinway without further trouble anywhere in the world he/she plays. The irony is that in Europe, Halls and Conservatories are heavily (in some cases totally) subsidized by taxpayer money. Taxes pay for Steinways.

Dear Vikendios,

The last thing I want to see is for Steinway to go out of business. I sell many used Steinway pianos and do contract rebuilding of them for institutions and colleges that have the absolute highest reputations. However, over the past 20 years, their business here in the USA, has been profoundly effected. For instance, in the year 2000, the NY S&S factory made and sold almost 2500 pianos. In the year 2010, they made and sold well under 1000. (Those numbers were easily found as the company was publicly traded at the time).

Part of that decrease was due to the recession of 2008, but other manufacturers who are in the premium tier did not suffer those same losses. In fact, some of them have thrived in the USA since then, despite the fact that S&S has regularly given away (or loaned) instruments to a huge number of concert halls, colleges, festivals, etc.

The days of S&S being a favored status here in the USA are dwindling, IMHO. When very well respected schools purchase Bösendorfers, Faziolis, high end Yamahas, instead of (or many times in addition to) S&S pianos, the students get a clearer picture of the marketplace. This in turn opens a mind that, perhaps 20 years ago, would have been closed to another option. The times they are a-changin'.

My 2 cents,


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila., Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Visit our Online Store
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Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3023190 09/09/20 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by j&j
First congratulations on your new Steinway! What did you order? I’ve always wanted a Steinway B. Which is highly unlikely to ever happen. I really enjoyed reading your post.

It is a new "A" finished in Makassar. This sounds very fancy so here is the background. I retired five years ago, aged 71, and sold my shares in the business. My wife and I have no kids and led a very adventurous and international life and lived in many countries. Our passion, outside of work, was sailing. (Many famous musicians loved sailing, like the conductor and British Prime Minister Edward Heath, and of course Herbert von Karajan, whose sailing yacht "La Forza del Destino" was a competitive mainstay). After a health scare, we decided to opt for a much quieter city lifestyle, and, loving classical music and particularly baroque, I took up the piano.

I wanted to create in my home a large music room with various instruments, not specifically for myself but for all my friends and their offsprings, some of which are professional musicians, so we could liven up our old days with friendly home concerts. I also decided to sponsor upcoming young musicians, and help them with scholarships and instruments. In exchange, I ask them to occasionally come and perform at home, and wonderful friendships have started across generations. The most attention-getting instrument in my room is the organ, with its 165 working pipes. Before Covid we had several organ concerts with an audience of about two dozen people of all ages, ending very late at night with much food and wine and guitar or lute-playing. (Funnily, the pianists tend to shun taking to the piano after an organ concert).

I knew nothing about piano brands or technology. Like many French people my grandparents had a Pleyel grand from the twenties, unused. As a kid, my friends who played the piano would have a run of the mill Gaveau upright. And I knew about Steinway from concert halls. That's all.

Under the advice of my teacher, I got for myself a good unrestored six foot Ibach from the seventies. It came from the Steinway agent for France (since then, Steinway has repurchased the agency and opened its own showroom in Paris). We spoke one day about the Spirio system, which had just been introduced. I was tempted by the prestige of the name and the superb looks of the veneer. I could never justify a Steinway with my present skills, but if Lang Lang or Duke Ellington were going to play for me in my own living room, the narrative changed. His demo was sold, but I ordered one, an "O" in bubinga. It was the 2nd Spirio sold in France, and the last Steinway the dealer sold before relinquishing the agency, so he gave me an excellent price, reimbursed the Ibach, and upgraded it to a practically new Schimmel loaner while waiting one year for the "O".

My friends loved my magic piano and that stunning show of Yuja playing Schumann's Smuggler. And even more the recreation of past masterpieces with Tatum or Horowitz using the Zenph technology. The quality of the Spirio technology is unreal, congrats to Dr Wayne Stahnke and to the Steinway people who every month send 3 or 4 hours of new music to me over the Internet.

But, surprise, as my own piano skills increased, I found the piano player less and less useful. The selection offered by the Spirio library is superb, but does not include much intermediate material that I need to study, and too much chinese pop : that's a big market for them. Then IDAGIO appeared, and even if it cannot match the quality of real hammers hitting real strings, it does open up the field to all other instruments. So I decided to enquire about a larger grand, the obvious "B". The Steinway people in Paris were fantastic. They offered me a solid bid for my Spirio: they had such demand that they could turn over an immediately available instrument in no time. Because of my longish harpsichords, I could not exactly fit a "B", so it will be an "A". Should flip in november.



Steinway "A". Roland LX 706. Viscount Sonus 45 hybrid organ with 165 real pipes. Harpsichord by Marc Fontaine.
Re: Passing the baton
Vikendios #3023198 09/09/20 12:30 PM
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What an exciting piano adventure. Yes my own health scare inspired me to trade in my 7 year old C3 and buy the Estonia with Bubinga under the lid fallboard and music desk.

Much of the new piano market is, in recent years, determined by the Chinese market which especially includes Steinway. I’m not sure how good that is for the global market but it is nice to think that a very large group of people grow up learning piano.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
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Re: Passing the baton
j&j #3023200 09/09/20 12:34 PM
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I’d take a Steinway A in a heartbeat. Congratulations!


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
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Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3023207 09/09/20 12:52 PM
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Vikendios
Thanks so very much for all you are doing to keep music alive😊
alas, I would love to attend one of your soirées


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3023292 09/09/20 03:56 PM
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This makes me wonder who will take over companies like Sauter and August Forster one day ? 🤔 These companies have survived much ,so one can still be hopeful.

Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3023303 09/09/20 04:25 PM
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Steingraeber & Söhne fits the Bill of a private (family owned & operated) boutique piano manufacturer

The company just celebrated it’s 200th anniversary, under the stewardship of Udo Steingraeber, a 6th generation Steingraeber

They produce fewer than 80 grands & 60 uprights per year, in parts of the same factory/shop, used 200 years ago. And despite being a boutique manufacturer, They’ve been quite innovative over the years

Due to Covid - I haven’t yet made the trip to tour the Factory (or stay a night in the famed “House”), but I plan to

Below is an article w/pics if You’re interested to read more

Interview with Udo Steingraeber


~Lucubrate

Last edited by Lucubrate; 09/09/20 04:28 PM.

Bösendorfer 280VC
Steingraeber 130

“First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.“ ~Epictetus
Re: Passing the baton
Lucubrate #3023347 09/09/20 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Lucubrate
Steingraeber & Söhne fits the Bill of a private (family owned & operated) boutique piano manufacturer

The company just celebrated it’s 200th anniversary, under the stewardship of Udo Steingraeber, a 6th generation Steingraeber

They produce fewer than 80 grands & 60 uprights per year, in parts of the same factory/shop, used 200 years ago. And despite being a boutique manufacturer, They’ve been quite innovative over the years

Due to Covid - I haven’t yet made the trip to tour the Factory (or stay a night in the famed “House”), but I plan to

Below is an article w/pics if You’re interested to read more

Interview with Udo Steingraeber


~Lucubrate
Sauter had its 200th anniversary in 2019. Ulrich Sauter manages a great part of the firm and still has shares but of course Mr Hott has majority shares .Let's hope they have interested relatives to.take leadership one day.

Re: Passing the baton
talkoftheweather #3023374 09/09/20 07:20 PM
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I don't think worrying about a relative taking over a piano maker is nearly important as the knowledge/concern for quality etc. of the person in charge. Boesendorfer, Steinway, and other top brands are not run by relatives of the founder and they're very good.

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