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Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021542 09/05/20 11:35 AM
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The Casio image was a PX-800 and I took it.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021556 09/05/20 12:06 PM
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I gotchu' clotheardnincompo. Pivot obsession is strong.

#4,

Make: Casio
Model: PX-800
Action: SHA 1
Pivot length: 7.1 inches :: 18 cm

Username Credit: clothearednincompo
Link: clothearednincompo PX-800

Last edited by jeffcat; 09/05/20 12:08 PM.
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021598 09/05/20 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
The Pivot for the bottom stick is longer, the hypotenuse is longer than sides a and b.

Can't argue against basic trigonometry. 😀

In Fatar's case the "hypotenuse" pivot is about 2% longer than the "two dimensional" bird's eye view pivot length. The angle between them is about 11 degrees.

I don't have the exact Fatar dimensions, but in centimeters it could be e.g. 20.5 vs. 20.9, so not that much.

There are two ways to project the point of the fallboard onto the hypotenuse, but their difference is insignificant. The invisible part of the white key in relation to the pivot length is about 27% for the bird's eye view pivot and about 30% for the hypotenuse.

Then calculating the required force to produce the same torque at the fallboard as at the tip of the key gives about 3.7 x force needed for the bird's eye view pivot and about 3.5 x force needed for the hypotenuse pivot. With a force of 50 g needed at the tip it's either 185g or 175g at the fallboard, so the offset pivot is a minor improvement.

Give or take...ballpark numbers and so on...unless the math is wrong. 🤓

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021612 09/05/20 03:02 PM
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P515???


Sanchez
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021621 09/05/20 03:36 PM
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Here's a garden variety budget upright for comparison. Somewhat explains why even basic upright acoustic actions feel better than many expensive DPs.

#5

Make: Kawai
Model: 606 Series (QACM) Year 2003
Action: Ultra-Responsive Direct Blow
Pivot length: 8-15/16th inches :: 22.7 cm

Username Credit: jeffcat
Link: jeffcat 606qacm

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Last edited by jeffcat; 09/05/20 03:40 PM.
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
Gombessa #3021706 09/05/20 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm against having too much sticky-thread proliferation

This forum could do with a Wiki :-) A simple option though might be to have one sticky thread, where the first post contains links to all of the other important threads.

I'd be interested in seeing all of those little comments people have made about each action collected together. It's pretty hard to search for general opinions on e.g. GF vs GFIII.

(we could also do with an upgrade to https :-)

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021740 09/05/20 09:05 PM
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Do you even have any kind of abilities on the piano that would warrant an action with certain specifications? I'm finding more and more that its the mediocre players who obsess about this kind of stuff.

Instead of actually, you know, playing music - they're on here making constant posts about pivot points.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021817 09/06/20 02:42 AM
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Ignore this topic if not interested.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
clothearednincompo #3021823 09/06/20 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Ignore this topic if not interested.

You could have ignored my comment as well, but you didn't.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021827 09/06/20 03:20 AM
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You could have ignored this topic and played piano instead. 🙂

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
clothearednincompo #3021833 09/06/20 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
You could have ignored this topic and played piano instead. 🙂

And you could have taken your own advice and ignored my comment, but again, you didn't. Also, you're comparing apples and oranges here - this isn't something I constantly think about or obsess over. I've passively visited this forum over the years, and I can't help but make some observations. Typing out a few sentences to convey this, 3 short posts out of probably a decade, is a little different than creating threads, typing dozens of posts, measuring pivots, analyzing photos, etc. But sure, now that I've made that post, I certainly will go back to playing piano. Ciao

(Remember to ignore this comment btw, get back to those pivots)

Last edited by EnoughBS; 09/06/20 03:40 AM.
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
EnoughBS #3021834 09/06/20 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by EnoughBS
I'm finding more and more that its the mediocre players who obsess about this kind of stuff.

Instead of actually, you know, playing music - they're on here making constant posts about pivot points.

Beginners are much more likely to be considering instruments in the lower-middle price range, where these things may matter more. High price range instruments are likely to have a fine action, so you don't need to worry about it. I doubt that many experienced players, when they have the choice, would not prefer a nicer action if they don't already have one.

Pivot points are of course not the only thing that matters but I applaud initiatives by users to measure and inspect their instruments and try to find out what characteristics correlate with better playing experience. It also keeps the manufacturers sharp, and emancipates us from advertising nonsense. Perhaps pivot point is unimportant, perhaps not, but how are we going to find out if we don't start with collecting the numbers?


Yamaha P-115 -> Kawai CA-58 -> Kawai K-300 ATX3
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021844 09/06/20 05:33 AM
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Someone could start a "Does pivot length matter?" topic if they have opinions or facts for or against the pivot length mattering.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021862 09/06/20 06:45 AM
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Your physical pivot points are far more important than those on the pianos. As adults we don't have the flexibility we had when we were seven or eight, or even in our teens. Address those, in the lower back, the upper back, the shoulders, neck, arms, elbows and wrists and then you will not worry about the piano pivot points.


Roland LX706

South Wales, UK
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021870 09/06/20 07:21 AM
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I think you forgot to mention the most prominent pivot point, Colin!

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
Colin Miles #3021871 09/06/20 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Your physical pivot points are far more important than those on the pianos. As adults we don't have the flexibility we had when we were seven or eight, or even in our teens. Address those, in the lower back, the upper back, the shoulders, neck, arms, elbows and wrists and then you will not worry about the piano pivot points.

This is such a good point. I've only been playing the piano for a few years, but early on I was experiencing tremendous lower back pain/spasms and I didn't know why until I captured video of myself playing. I realized my posture was terrible. I was collapsing my lower back while at the bench. It took some time to rehab my back, but now it's healthy again. I constantly remind myself to not collapse my lower back when playing.

There are a few other areas I had to correct with my posture/pivots to ensure I keep myself healthy. I'm pushing 50 and it's no fun having to deal with aches and pains exacerbated by a hobby that puts stress on parts of my body that are not used to being worked this way.

God Bless,
David


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Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
Colin Miles #3021917 09/06/20 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Your physical pivot points are far more important than those on the pianos. As adults we don't have the flexibility we had when we were seven or eight, or even in our teens. Address those, in the lower back, the upper back, the shoulders, neck, arms, elbows and wrists and then you will not worry about the piano pivot points.

As I understand it the LX-706 that you have Colin has the longest pivot length of all digital pianos except perhaps for the NV10. I think that is looking after your finger joints the best way possible by minimising the work of your fingers.

I don't understand the attempt to derail this thread. There are multiple discussions about key fall weight and people measuring it on this forum. I think this is mostly useless unless you are also measuring the mass of the key itself. I think inertia is what dominates how an actions feels and that the fall weight is secondary. So I just stay out of those discussions and do not attempt to derail those who wish to measure fall weight.

I think pivot length is an important element of an action and how it feels and I think getting measurements is sensible.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
KevinM #3021924 09/06/20 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Your physical pivot points are far more important than those on the pianos. As adults we don't have the flexibility we had when we were seven or eight, or even in our teens. Address those, in the lower back, the upper back, the shoulders, neck, arms, elbows and wrists and then you will not worry about the piano pivot points.

As I understand it the LX-706 that you have Colin has the longest pivot length of all digital pianos except perhaps for the NV10. I think that is looking after your finger joints the best way possible by minimising the work of your fingers.

I don't understand the attempt to derail this thread. There are multiple discussions about key fall weight and people measuring it on this forum. I think this is mostly useless unless you are also measuring the mass of the key itself. I think inertia is what dominates how an actions feels and that the fall weight is secondary. So I just stay out of those discussions and do not attempt to derail those who wish to measure fall weight.

I think pivot length is an important element of an action and how it feels and I think getting measurements is sensible.
Irrespective of the length of my current piano pivots, and I have played many pianos in my lifetime, from small digitals and the largest acoustics, I stand by my comments. Not trying to derail but merely attempting to bring it to issues that are rather more fundamental to the way that you play the piano.


Roland LX706

South Wales, UK
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
Colin Miles #3021931 09/06/20 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Your physical pivot points are far more important than those on the pianos. As adults we don't have the flexibility we had when we were seven or eight, or even in our teens. Address those, in the lower back, the upper back, the shoulders, neck, arms, elbows and wrists and then you will not worry about the piano pivot points.

As I understand it the LX-706 that you have Colin has the longest pivot length of all digital pianos except perhaps for the NV10. I think that is looking after your finger joints the best way possible by minimising the work of your fingers.

I don't understand the attempt to derail this thread. There are multiple discussions about key fall weight and people measuring it on this forum. I think this is mostly useless unless you are also measuring the mass of the key itself. I think inertia is what dominates how an actions feels and that the fall weight is secondary. So I just stay out of those discussions and do not attempt to derail those who wish to measure fall weight.

I think pivot length is an important element of an action and how it feels and I think getting measurements is sensible.
Irrespective of the length of my current piano pivots, and I have played many pianos in my lifetime, from small digitals and the largest acoustics, I stand by my comments. Not trying to derail but merely attempting to bring it to issues that are rather more fundamental to the way that you play the piano.

Well then the way to do that is start your own thread rather than derailing this thread.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021937 09/06/20 11:23 AM
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There have been several mod reports about people trolling or derailing this thread. A few comments:
  1. Years of experience has proven there's simply no way to control where a thread goes, who posts and how "relevant" posts are.
  2. Trying to accomplish (1) results in frustration all around, not to mention numerous mod reports.
  3. Moderators going in and editing all of the posts that participants feel are trollish is time consuming and ultimately a complete waste of time.


So someone wading into the middle of your discussion isn't necessarily grounds for a mod report.

Having said that, deliberately posting or derailing a topic is rude. Doing it repeatedly is ruder still and is likely to get you a "vacation" because the moderators are tired of getting reports about you.

So if you don't have anything germane to contribute to a thread, read it (or not) and move on.

And with that, I'll apologize for derailing this thread. Carry on discussing pivot lengths.


Greg
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