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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3019715 08/31/20 09:25 AM
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Well, I believe that the double-repetition spring regulation might affect (or why not eliminate?) this phenomenon. If it's strong enough (but not too strong), it would be able to separate the free moving key away from the hammer to reengage the jack.

Last edited by CyberGene; 08/31/20 09:26 AM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3019750 08/31/20 11:05 AM
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Wow. This forum is something else. Thank you everyone!

@Harpuia I’ve experienced this limitation in:
Bach-Busoni Chaconne (Partita 2) bars: 238-245 “Ossia”
Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody n. 2, 6, 12, Dante Sonata, La Campanella ecc... bars: well... many bars
Scarlatti k141 bars: almost everywhere smile
One can play all these pieces very well on the Novus with a good vst with great musicality at good tempi. But for very fast and light playing I found a wall due to the keys getting stuck. (I’m not a God tier pianist like others in this beautiful forum, but I can reach this limit on the novus easily)

@Kawai James The video is now set on unlisted as you requested. Unfortunately I cannot record another one soon because I’m not at home. I’m sorry for the low audio, but I think one can notice it visually (key not reaching the bed) also the phenomenon has been largely described in the previous replies.

@CyberGene wow, great analysis!

Best regards

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
CyberGene #3019786 08/31/20 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
And now if you don't release fully but at that very moment try to repeat again, you will stop the key midway but the hammer will still be moving down and will check (get caught) in the backcheck but at an unusual deep position where the backcheck is still not high enough, hence the front part of the key is not deep enough. This blocks the entire system suddenly and to unblock it you need to release the key. Or in other words it's an extraordinary circumstance where the hammer is checked at an incomplete key position.

But the hammer shouldn't get caught in the back checks. They move backwards as well as down when the key is released. They shouldn't be able to catch the hammer unless the key is at the very bottom.

If you look at the arcs of the hammer and back check, they should only intersect when the key is fully pressed. Hammer tails are shaped (and the back checks are angled) in such a way that this is the only way the back check and hammer can meet.

If you play staccato, the back checks shouldn't be able to make contact with the returning hammer.

If you play super fortissimo and staccato, it's possible for the returning hammer to over shoot and get caught in the back check very low down, but the stop rail should prevent this. If the springs have the right tension, this shouldn't happen.

I can't jam the action on my acoustic.

Last edited by johnstaf; 08/31/20 12:25 PM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
johnstaf #3019815 08/31/20 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by CyberGene
And now if you don't release fully but at that very moment try to repeat again, you will stop the key midway but the hammer will still be moving down and will check (get caught) in the backcheck but at an unusual deep position where the backcheck is still not high enough, hence the front part of the key is not deep enough. This blocks the entire system suddenly and to unblock it you need to release the key. Or in other words it's an extraordinary circumstance where the hammer is checked at an incomplete key position.

But the hammer shouldn't get caught in the back checks. They move backwards as well as down when the key is released. They shouldn't be able to catch the hammer unless the key is at the very bottom.

If you look at the arcs of the hammer and back check, they should only intersect when the key is fully pressed. Hammer tails are shaped (and the back checks are angled) in such a way that this is the only way the back check and hammer can meet.

If you play staccato, the back checks shouldn't be able to make contact with the returning hammer.

If you play super fortissimo and staccato, it's possible for the returning hammer to over shoot and get caught in the back check very low down, but the stop rail should prevent this. If the springs have the right tension, this shouldn't happen.

I can't jam the action on my acoustic.

I guess it depends on the design of the hammer tails and backcheck angle, however that's what's happening on the Cybrid: the key hasn't reached bottom (i.e. the backcheck isn't at its maximum position) however the hammer is checked and the touch point between the hammer tail and the backcheck is lower on the backheck length compared to usual. I haven't opened the N1X to also double-check but I'm 100% sure it's the same problem. I will make a video or pictures later to demonstrate it although I can make pictures only on the highest key of the Cybrid and it's more difficult to reproduce that problem there.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3019830 08/31/20 02:08 PM
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Here's a video which starts almost immediately with a very low backcheck jam and then after numerous repetitions ends with another jam:


Here are also some pictures comparing a regular check position and irregular check position, with key height difference shown:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3019831 08/31/20 02:17 PM
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IIRC someone posted a couple of years ago that this was only an issue on the current generation. I think he had an N2, but couldn't make this happen on it, but it was a problem on the N3X. Some else with an N1 noticed this when shopping for an N3X.

On my piano, if I don't lift the key enough before repeating a note I just get a dead note. In both cases the solution is to let the key rise higher, so jamming the AG is also the solution to sloppy repeated notes. It's good training I suppose. 😀 I don't think it matters.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3019833 08/31/20 02:30 PM
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Thanks for the video. I think the back check angle is the problem. The bottom of the back check should be further back so it doesn't touch the hammer.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3019858 08/31/20 03:36 PM
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Indeed, it may be the angle, I haven't regulated those and kept them "stock" (which for a 100+ years old action that has gone through an unknown number of technicians means nothing :D). I only regulated the check distance because I don't have angle twisting tool. I made a slow motion video on my iPhone but for some reason when I upload it to YouTube the slow motion is lost (I'm on an iOS pre-release beta and that may be the reason). After carefully going back and forth in slow motion I believe my original explanation holds true but I guess you are also right that if the angle is corrected, the backcheck wouldn't be able to touch the hammer and will make this even harder if not impossible to happen. Otherwise, if you have your action open, I can explain how you can manually attempt to validate if your action has the potential to exhibit this behavior:

1. Press the key very slowly to the bottom without the hammer checking: the same way as when you are regulating the drop screw
2. Now, while holding the key with one hand, start pressing the hammer with your other hand down, so that it compresses the double repetition lever
3. When the hammer tail reaches the backcheck, start releasing the key very slowly while at the same time you keep pushing the hammer down, so that the double repetition lever stays compressed but the hammer tails keeps sliding down the backcheck, barely touching it but going past below its regular touch point.

When you reach a lower than usual point press the key firmly and release your finger from the hammer. If you managed to reach this point and the backcheck is pressing against the hammer, you will have exactly the jam we're discussing. If not, then your action has proper backcheck angle regulation (or has better design of the tail shape and/or backcheck profile).

The fact this is happening to brand new instruments such as the N1X and NV10 makes me think it's either hard to eliminate that through a regulation, or it requires way too precise regulation that takes much time and they didn't do it.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3019867 08/31/20 03:53 PM
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Here's a slow motion:


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3019912 08/31/20 06:00 PM
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Cool video!

I can push the hammers down very low so the straight part of the hammer comes in contact with the back check, but the recoiling hammer hasn't enough momentum to get that low by itself. The back check can't meet the hammer again once the key has been released. Where you get a jammed note, I just get a dead note.

It took me a long time to get everything working just right. With the old action, it felt like I was just tickling the bottoms of the keys and I'd get repeated notes, but the 100 year old springs became difficult to regulate. My current action has very strong springs, and I want to lighten them a bit. I also need taller back checks so I can check the hammers closer to the strings. My current hammer tails are not as long as the originals. However, they were the only ones available that had the same felt density and weight as the originals.

Current hybrids are great. It would probably be too expensive to do a long and laborious regulation at current prices, and it wouldn't actually make much difference. A really extensive regulation is very expensive.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3020439 09/02/20 04:35 AM
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Hi,

Does anyone know what is coming?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEm6319A2tW/?igshid=f132xo9gbozq

Is it a hybrid model?

Thanks,


Kawai NV10
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Seif Maher #3020532 09/02/20 11:20 AM
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It turns out to be an image of the NV5.
Originally Posted by Seif Maher
Hi,

Does anyone know what is coming?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEm6319A2tW/?igshid=f132xo9gbozq

Is it a hybrid model?

Thanks,

It turns out to be an image of the NV5.


Kawai NV10
Casio AP-470
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3021053 09/03/20 11:11 PM
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Is this "stuck key" issue with the NV10, N1X, and N3X any reason NOT to buy a hybrid piano? Or is this issue negligible with more advanced classical repertoire?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gombessa #3021090 09/04/20 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Press Function + C7. Ohh, wait, that’s on the other instrument with the terribly outdated panel with physical buttons... 😉

Once you memorize them, hotkeys are the fastest way to do anything. Unless it's an N2/N3, then you gotta slide out the hidden panel first!

[Linked Image]

I'm sold on the Novus' Favorites system now. It's actually super cool. I can quickly toggle between my ideal Novus settings and Pianoteq settings with a *single* touch. Sorta ideal while performing.

I have plans to use this for a piece... although it'll be a while before I get it to it.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
joe3701 #3021249 09/04/20 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by joe3701
Is this "stuck key" issue with the NV10, N1X, and N3X any reason NOT to buy a hybrid piano? Or is this issue negligible with more advanced classical repertoire?

No. This is the first have heard of it. If you have an issue with your NV10, Kawai support is very good.



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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3021253 09/04/20 01:41 PM
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Agreed. If anything, it sounds like a reason not to get any acoustic grand piano, because it seems to be a matter of regulation that could potentially happen on any acoustic action.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3021282 09/04/20 02:41 PM
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I can't even repro this issue on mine but I may be lacking the skills/speed required to do so?

Like Tom said, Kawai support is excellent, so I'm not worried.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3021303 09/04/20 03:47 PM
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There are about 90 users having an N1X or NV10 on this forum. So far only one NV10 users found it annoying for his/her repertoire, which means the rest of ~90 users didn't even notice that for months, or years. I can understand that some pianists may be picky about the action regulation and if that's the case, not all grand piano actions will please those pianists (and all upright actions will be unplayable to them as upright actions have an even slower repetition). Just like Horowitz and Glenn Gould, they have their own piano technicians to regulate their actions specifically to their tastes.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
navindra #3021306 09/04/20 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by navindra
I can't even repro this issue on mine but I may be lacking the skills/speed required to do so?

You're not the only one. I can usually repro most behaviors when described adequately, but this one is tough, and I think I'm also not fast enough to reliably trigger it.

I can make it happen one out of every 10 to 20 strikes depending on the key, by doing something like this:

1. Hit a key forcefully (about MIDI velocity 70 and up) but in a staccato manner so that your finger doesn't travel with the key to the bottom of the keybed, just jab the key with your finger so that the key bottoms out on its own.

2. As soon as you hit the key and release your finger, drop your finger back down to the key as fast as you can.

3. When you release the key in step 1, it will bottom out, then bounce back up. You want to catch the key at the bottom of that bounce, and if you do it "right" the key travel will have been fast enough to outpace the hammer and trap it.

I have no idea if this is the pianistic playing technique that triggers it, it's just what has worked for me. I also don't have access to any acoustic pianos to test if the same behavior applies. But I have no reason to believe it doesn't affect acoustics too, since it seems to be a purely mechanical behavior associated with the hammer, key, backcheck, etc.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #3021311 09/04/20 03:55 PM
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^ Yes, basically that is. I’ve also explained why it happens. It may (partially?) be prevented by a better backcheck angle alignment but that’s a tedious and slow process and I doubt that’s often performed even on acoustic pianos, besides top concert instruments.


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