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Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
#3021242 09/04/20 12:25 PM
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How come this AlphaDog forum of the piano community does not have its own Validated Pivot length thread? Why are we dependent on some stupid list out of no-where on the internet ?

Let's make our own list and blow them away. Start fresh, Rigorous validation.

Format:

-Photo- w/ ruler, end of key to Pivot.
Make:
Model:
Action name:
Pivot length: Centimeter / Inches
Username Credit: (one who posted the photo)

When you guys post, I will update the main top post, Quoting/Crediting the User AND the affiliated post #

I will also archive the photos so we have a backup.

Last edited by jeffcat; 09/04/20 12:28 PM.
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Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021243 09/04/20 12:25 PM
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/Reserved

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021244 09/04/20 12:28 PM
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Just realized this forum doesn't allow editing older posts, that's fine, we'll just update a link some where else. or the mod could allow it.

Last edited by jeffcat; 09/04/20 12:38 PM.
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021267 09/04/20 01:11 PM
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Quote
How come this AlphaDog forum of the piano community does not have its own Validated Pivot length thread?

No disrespect, but who should anyone care? Has anyone established that this has a significant effect on playability, save for in a handful of cases?

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021273 09/04/20 01:19 PM
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People trying out actions with short pivots have established that it has a significant effect on playability.

Then there are also the laws of physics.

I don't see why one would object the idea and derail the discussion from providing useful information to questioning the usefulness of the exercise.

As Nike says: Just Do It

😀

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
clothearednincompo #3021310 09/04/20 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
As Nike says: Just Do It
😀

Anyone should be able to start their own relevant threads here.

However, I get the sense that the problem being addressed is like this one smile
[Linked Image]

Also, if I can channel Mac3, I'm against having too much sticky-thread proliferation, and while having a thread that compiles pivot lengths (why not one for keyweight too, that's another often-discussed metric) may be useful, I hope it doesn't become a permanent fixture at the top of the forum!


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021321 09/04/20 03:21 PM
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Don't forget the image of ISO certificate (NIST is preferred) for a ruler used to measure the pivot!


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
Adult beginner
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021326 09/04/20 03:27 PM
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I'm not expecting 15 standards for measuring the pivot length. It should be pretty obvious what to measure.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
clothearednincompo #3021327 09/04/20 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
I'm not expecting 15 standards for measuring the pivot length. It should be pretty obvious what to measure.

I was referring more to this:

Quote
Why are we dependent on some stupid list out of no-where on the internet ?

Let's make our own list and blow them away.

But now that you mention it...if the internet can come up with no fewer than 5 different and non-comparable ways to measure key downweight, I'm confident we can bollocks pivot measurements too (especially as you get into actions where the pivot is not on the plane of the keys) smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021355 09/04/20 04:54 PM
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Might the owners of NU1 (X) deign to cast an aloof glance at this posting . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
VladK #3021385 09/04/20 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by VladK
Don't forget the image of ISO certificate (NIST is preferred) for a ruler used to measure the pivot!

One would think so.
But then there’s the unbridled mess that people made out of measuring touch weight!


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021455 09/05/20 05:39 AM
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Isn't two dimensional thinking good enough? Place a ruler on a white key and measure from the tip to the pivot point.

Of course there's always some room for nitpicking.

For example the keys are not perfectly horizontal when at rest, so there's a tiny difference between projecting vertically down from the ruler/tape measure to the actual pivot point and projecting at a 90 degree angle from the surface of the key.

But that's negligible.

Then the vertical (up/down) location of the pivot point (hardly) affects the relation of the pivot length (measured two dimensionally from above) and the ratio of the key dips at the tip of the key and at the fallboard. I can't put a number on it, but it's probably pretty small too. And the point was not to measure the difference in key dips at the front and back, but the pivot length and it has no effect on the "two dimensional pivot length from above".

Fatar is probably an extereme example of a low pivot point:

[Linked Image]

And Kawai the opposite:

[Linked Image]

And on acoustics and hybrids the pivot point is at the bottom of the key stick.

Here's a completely fictional and exaggerated example of the effect of the vertical pivot offset. The red arrows are the same length. (Of course different in vertical and horizontal)

[Linked Image]

There's no significant effect on anything. Looks like just a manufacturing oriented decision.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021456 09/05/20 05:49 AM
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So, how about the the actual pivot lengths?

We've got Roland PHA4 Standard:

[Linked Image]

From here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2534748/1.html

We've got Casio Scaled Hammer Action (1st gen.):

[Linked Image]

From here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3015117/re-px-160-popped-out-key.html#Post3015117

Then we have a list of models that use the same white keys in here: https://www.keyboardkountry.com/replacement-keys-for-casio-privia-px-200-and-others/

And then we have "pure conjecture" suggesting that the length is the same for newer Privias and Celvianos too, excluding the PX-S models of course: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ose-to-acoustic-feeling.html#Post2920167

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021459 09/05/20 06:01 AM
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Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021504 09/05/20 09:39 AM
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#1,

Make: Roland
Model: FP-30
Action: PHA 4
Pivot length: 7-7/8th inches :: 20cm

Username Credit: ivorytux
Link: ivorytux FP-30


#2,

Make: Roland
Model: RD-700NX
Action: PHA 3
Pivot length: 8.54 inches :: 21.7cm

Username Credit: dewster
Link: dewster RD-700NX


THANKS to clothearednincompo for the Chime in.

Keep'm coming bois.

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021510 09/05/20 09:47 AM
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[Linked Image]

The Pivot for the bottom stick is longer, the hypotenuse is longer than sides a and b.

Last edited by jeffcat; 09/05/20 09:47 AM.
Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021514 09/05/20 09:50 AM
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For anyone who says, Pivot length doesn't matter, WHY would Kawai even advertise it then?

[Linked Image]

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021518 09/05/20 09:54 AM
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#3,

Make: Kawai
Model: MP11 (Original, Non-SE)
Action: Grand Feel 1, GF1
Pivot length: 9-1/2 inches :: 24.13 cm

Username Credit: Gombessa
Link: Gombessa MP11

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
jeffcat #3021522 09/05/20 09:55 AM
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If that scale in Casio image was inches and not mm I wouldn’t have a problem with the pivot length of my PX870. ;-)
Muskie

Re: Pivot length Validation thread. (Let's do this)
Muskellunge #3021523 09/05/20 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Muskellunge
If that scale in Casio image was inches and not mm I wouldn’t have a problem with the pivot length of my PX870. ;-)
Muskie

Hahahaha. /Preach.

That image was posted without context though. I can not validate the casio, yours could be different. The only way to know for sure is to pop out that screw driver.

Last edited by jeffcat; 09/05/20 09:59 AM.
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