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Yes Kawai Grand Feel and RMIII are not folded. (But AHA IV is folded).
The factual difference : The hammers are above the key on the opposite side of the fulcrum. Not under the key But what is more interesting is how they feel and you have to test them yourself. It can be subjective : I have no trouble with high-end Yamaha folded keyboard and I can’t say they are inferior than Grand Feel. (But inferior than Avant Grand).
Last edited by Frédéric L; 08/26/2012:12 PM.
http://www.sinerj.org/ http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/ Yamaha N1X, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
So kawai is non folded? What is difference? Is kawai longer key sticks? Don't fully understand.
It's just how they build the lever. There's nothing wrong with a "folded" action, but it's undeniably more complex than a simple lever, which is how an acoustic piano's keysticks work. Kawai's higher end wooden key actions use a long (unfolded) wooden keystick that tilts on a central balance rail. They're quite well-regarded as realistic feeling. For manufacturers that offer both folded and non-folded actions, the folded ones are used in more lower to mid-tier actions, and longer wooden keystick actions are used in higher end actions (see Kawai, Casio). In the case of Yamaha/Roland, they don't currently have full-length wooden key actions, so they use folded actions (some of which have wooden parts) in everything from their lowest to highest end action, short of the AvantGrand.
Originally Posted by Otavio
In the 775 preview bonners video, he said that in 700.series,the keys are easy to play near fallboard and the black keys are more balanced with white keys. Don't know if this is related to the length of the stick
I think what this means is--if Grandtouch-S, the black keys are "longer" since they are staggered back, and thus are also more balanced with the white keys, so technically both are true at least for the sharps
I think what this means is--if Grandtouch-S, the black keys are "longer" since they are staggered back, and thus are also more balanced with the white keys, so technically both are true at least for the sharps
Yep taking a page out of Roland Hybrid Grand Keyboard in the LX706 and LX708 pianos. I found both Roland PHA-50 and Hybrid Grand Keyboard actions very enjoyable to play. Will be fun to test out the new Yamaha models when I can.
All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
I heard yamaha uses full length key sticks, longest in any dp, in their grandtouch...
"The greater length of GrandTouch keys give the player MORE leverage, allowing for better expressive control, even at the backs of the keys. This is the same support length found on the Yamaha S3X premium grand piano (as of April 2017), and is the longest support length used on any digital piano."
On a folded action, the hammer has a pivot point. The key pushes directly one side of the hammer, which lifts the heavy part of the hammer at the other side of the pivot.
That’s it.
On an unfolded action, there are two parts too : the keystick and the hammer.
The folded action is mostly chosen because it is more compact. And the unfolded action is more comparable in the principle with the grand action. (The feeling mais s another thing).
Last edited by Frédéric L; 08/26/2001:59 PM.
http://www.sinerj.org/ http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/ Yamaha N1X, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
So would grandtouch on a clp 685 or 775 for example be much improvement over my yamaha cp4 or a p515? If all actions are shortish folded actions? Kawai definetly is with its gf3 action as its clearly a long stick you can feel and its easier to play softly... On my cp4 its more difficult to play softly as you like due to its sudden click as I were in place, hard to explain, just not as balanced, it's more press or not press, not much in between that is achievable with mic control to achieve the sound you want.
Today, in one of the official Yamaha groups in one of the social networks, where the new CLP-700 series was described, I came across a fragment that was not mentioned in other official materials:
"Improved timbres and binaural sampling of Yamaha CFX and Bosendorfer Imperial grand pianos by adding additional layers of samples. This makes it possible to extract a greater dynamic range, from soft delicate pianissimo to powerful energetic fortissimo".
The binaural sample on my P-515 is a single layer sample, which is the reason why I switch to the five layer stereo sample even when using headphones.
So additional binaural sample layers are a welcome change.
Today, in one of the official Yamaha groups in one of the social networks, where the new CLP-700 series was described, I came across a fragment that was not mentioned in other official materials:
"Improved timbres and binaural sampling of Yamaha CFX and Bosendorfer Imperial grand pianos by adding additional layers of samples. This makes it possible to extract a greater dynamic range, from soft delicate pianissimo to powerful energetic fortissimo".
Very nice upgrade. It seems that Yamaha did a nice improvement in this CLP 700, at least on paper.
It seems the 785 is not available yet. At Thomann I can see the range only up to the 775. Besides, the price of 775 is very close to that of the NU1X. Unless there are some features that make sensible difference, I see no reason to go for the 775 or 785. I wish they did not cancel the Musikmesse as it used to be the perfect place where one can play all the pianos. Guess the next year’s one will be postponed, too...
On a folded action, the hammer has a pivot point. The key pushes directly one side of the hammer, which lifts the heavy part of the hammer at the other side of the pivot.
That’s it.
On an unfolded action, there are two parts too : the keystick and the hammer.
The folded action is mostly chosen because it is more compact. And the unfolded action is more comparable in the principle with the grand action. (The feeling mais s another thing).
I think we're saying slightly different things. In terms of physics and levers, yes they may be equivalent. But in reality, I think folded action typically IS more complex. You need a hinge (sometimes lubricated) for the key on a folded action. You might have a leaf spring on some actions to help with key return. The hammer might be actuated up closer to the fallboard, or right by the keyslip, and might be facing different directions. The sensors may be tripped directly by the keys, or by the hammer shank. The hammer might be captured, or free-flying. You often need a foam strip and a hook at the front of the key to dampen the key return, etc.
On an unfolded action, you could technically have many of these variances, but you rarely do. It's usually just a long keystick on balance rail and a hammer on the other side.
More possible option doesn’t make it more complex by itself.
But some features can make a given implementation more complex. The possibly to change easily a GH (Yamaha) key probably makes the design more complex.
Yes, hinge can be more complex, but molded pieces could be cheaper to produce than wooden keysticks (but now, with wooden folded keyboards, we have some complex pieces to make.
Last edited by Frédéric L; 08/27/2001:47 PM.
http://www.sinerj.org/ http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/ Yamaha N1X, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
I really liked what i hear, sound less boxy than previous generations.
Yeah, honestly I couldn’t care less about counterweight or whatever small difference there is in action or other areas, I’m pretty sure I can adapt quite quickly to any of these actions. At the end of the day I have to play this thing and enjoy it, and to me there is NOTHING that sounds as good as Yamaha pianos for the type of music I play. If you are purely into classical music then Kawai is a good choice too, but for me, it’s not even close. The sound of the Yamaha is just too good, modern and unique to give up. Unless someone comes out with a product that is vastly better or radically cheaper, I’m never gonna change to something else.
