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#3015533 08/19/20 11:11 AM
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Hello,

My teacher asked me to get Chopin's complete études and preludes in Dover but it seems like they do not print the Paderewski edition anymore, only the Mikuli edition. Is the Mikuli edition good? What about the Mikuli edition of the Chopin études in Schirmer?

Thank you!

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I would ask your teacher what edition she prefers —- we all have our preferences 😊


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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You can find the Mikuli on imslp. Its an old edition. I doubt the Paderewsky edition was available by Dover, but it is edited and sold by the national chopin institute. There is also the excellent edition by National Edition, at the same level if not better in some ways than the Paderewsky. But of course both are much more expensive than Dover.


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Dover did reprint some of the Paderewski edition, but it was withdrawn for copyright concerns.

The original Mikuli edition was published by Kistner, and was reengraved by Schirmers. There is some slight variation between those two editions, due to the way that the engraver interpreted the original printing, and the smaller pieces were bundled differently. Schirmer did not publish the chamber music, but I cannot see any difference between the Mikuli Cello Sonata and Schirmer's Leo Schultz edition.

The Mikuli edition is very good. Karl Ulrich Schnabel preferred it to the Paderewski, which has a lot of interpretation. There are a number of old editions which are well-edited and probably as reliable textually as modern urtext editions, and some of them are better guides for interpretation. The Mikuli Chopin falls into that category.


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I would avoid buying Dover editions because they usually don't stay open on your music stand. My understanding is that the Polish National Editions are the most authoritative for all of Chopin's works. Before buying any edition, make sure your teacher is okay with it.


Best regards,

Deborah
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Originally Posted by gooddog
I would avoid buying Dover editions because they usually don't stay open on your music stand. My understanding is that the Polish National Editions are the most authoritative for all of Chopin's works. Before buying any edition, make sure your teacher is okay with it.

.... and make sure, with the Polish National Edition, you can afford it. smile

Regards,


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Originally Posted by gooddog
I would avoid buying Dover editions because they usually don't stay open on your music stand. My understanding is that the Polish National Editions are the most authoritative for all of Chopin's works. Before buying any edition, make sure your teacher is okay with it.
Funny, I have lots of Dover Editions and never had that problem. I do have the Chopin Scherzos in Paderewski/Polski Wydawnictwo Muzyczne (which also prints the National Ed.) that won't stay open for anything.

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I'm not sure why you would go for anything other than the National Editions for Chopin to be honest. I have the ballades, nocturnes and preludes and they're well presented whilst being a definitive urtext edition.

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Originally Posted by leemeadowcroft
I'm not sure why you would go for anything other than the National Editions for Chopin to be honest. I have the ballades, nocturnes and preludes and they're well presented whilst being a definitive urtext edition.

My problem with the National Edition is that they publish two separate volumes of some of the genres. Only the works published during Chopin's lifetime appear in their "A" series. If you want the complete Mazurkas, Polonaises, Impromptus, and Waltzes you have to buy the posthumous works in separate volumes in their "B" series. Cash grab?

No other publisher that I know of does that.

Regards,


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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by leemeadowcroft
I'm not sure why you would go for anything other than the National Editions for Chopin to be honest. I have the ballades, nocturnes and preludes and they're well presented whilst being a definitive urtext edition.

My problem with the National Edition is that they publish two separate volumes of some of the genres. Only the works published during Chopin's lifetime appear in their "A" series. If you want the complete Mazurkas, Polonaises, Impromptus, and Waltzes you have to buy the posthumous works in separate volumes in their "B" series. Cash grab?

No other publisher that I know of does that.

Regards,


They are more expensive certainly. I think both volumes would be around 40 euros when other editors like Henle sell for 32ish euros. They certainly ask for a premium but the print quality and latest edition is there too. But thete are also plenty of cheaper editions not speaking of free imslp.


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Originally Posted by leemeadowcroft
I'm not sure why you would go for anything other than the National Editions for Chopin to be honest. I have the ballades, nocturnes and preludes and they're well presented whilst being a definitive urtext edition.

Price for sure. Plus, if you're going to spend the money, it's hard to top Henle.

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There isn't really a definitive Chopin edition, and that's because there are so many variant readings in Chopin, even in the manuscripts he sent to his publishers in different countries, as well as notes written in teaching copies. The Mikuli edition while it doesn't stand up to the scholarly standards of today, is a good workable performing edition. Double check the score against an urtext edition if you're in any doubt about the authenticity of a particular measure. There is a website with all the variant readings that exist of all Chopin's works and I've forgotten the address of it.... but a google search will find it.

That said, the Mikuli edition is not as good as the Ekier edition, and there are now other good scholarly performing editions for instance Peters have a Chopin Urtext as well. The Paderewski edition is not the best edition, and his editorial practices would be frowned upon today, but it is still very useable of course.


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All of which means that there probably was never a definitive way that Chopin played his music.


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Originally Posted by BDB
All of which means that there probably was never a definitive way that Chopin played his music.

Chopin even said he was not consistent in how he played his compositions. He taught one of his students one of them, and the student was quite proud he could play it like Chopin at his next lesson— only to find out that a copy was not what Chopin wanted


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"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Originally Posted by BDB
All of which means that there probably was never a definitive way that Chopin played his music.

Chopin was an improvisor. George Sand said it best, and she knew his compositions as well as anyone...

"His creation was spontaneous, miraculous. He found it without searching for it, without foreseeing it. It came to his piano suddenly, complete, sublime, or it sang in his head during a walk, and he would hasten to hear it again by, tossing it off on his instrument. But then would begin the most heartbreaking labor I have ever witnessed. It was a series of efforts, indecision, and impatience to recapture certain details of the theme he had heard: what had come to him all of a piece, he now over-analyzed in his desire to write it down, and his regret at not finding it again "neat," as he said, would throw him into a kind of despair. He would shut himself up in his room for days at a time, weeping, pacing, breaking his pens, repeating and changing a single measure a hundred times, writing it and effacing it with equal frequency, and beginning again the next day with a meticulous and desperate perseverance. He would spend six weeks on one page, only to end up writing it just as he had traced it in his first outpouring."

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Besides those popular editions mentioned above, I find Salabert and Ricordi interesting.

p.s. I don't have strong music education background, so I always try to read different editions (and CDs/recordings) online or when going to the local library to get more ideas.

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Unless one is a stickler for urtext or playing in a competition, I think the value of urtext editions are overrated. I might not want an edition that's very "over edited" in the sense that it contains a lot of material not in an urtext edition. I'm pretty sure there was a time when there were few, if any, urtext editions for most composers. I think a terrific pianist playing what's in a non urtext edition will sound much better than a lesser pianist playing from an urtext edition.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Unless one is a stickler for urtext or playing in a competition, I think the value of urtext editions are overrated. I might not want an edition that's very "over edited" in the sense that it contains a lot of material not in an urtext edition. I'm pretty sure there was a time when there were few, if any, urtext editions for most composers. I think a terrific pianist playing what's in a non urtext edition will sound much better than a lesser pianist playing from an urtext edition.


Of course a terrific pianist will sound much better regardless of the edition used. Terrific pianists always sound better than most of us, so I don’t see how that comment is relevant.

For myself, I know I’m not terrific, but I still want to play a piece as closely as intended by the composer as a lesser pianist is capable. Even lesser pianists may see the need to be accurate. In fact, I would argue that urtext is very useful, particularly for us, as we will not be as readily able to recognize a poor edition that has been heavily edited as a more skilled pianist would.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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dogperson #3017285 08/24/20 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Unless one is a stickler for urtext or playing in a competition, I think the value of urtext editions are overrated. I might not want an edition that's very "over edited" in the sense that it contains a lot of material not in an urtext edition. I'm pretty sure there was a time when there were few, if any, urtext editions for most composers. I think a terrific pianist playing what's in a non urtext edition will sound much better than a lesser pianist playing from an urtext edition.
Of course a terrific pianist will sound much better regardless of the edition used. Terrific pianists always sound better than most of us, so I don’t see how that comment is relevant.
My point was to try and put the idea of an urtext edition in perspective. If an editied edition has a few "wrong" notes or something else different from an urtext but that edition is played by a terrific pianist, then they will sound better than a less skilled pianist playing the correct notes. Unless an edition is extremely edited the difference between it and an urtext is relatively minor IMO.

Some really great pianisst including Cortot, Schnabel, Debussy, Bartok, Wild, Paderewski, Hamelin, Liszt, and countless more made editions of other composer's works. One can learn a lot from those editions, and I don't think most of them are over edited(except for Schnabel, but his markings are in grey and the composers are in black). I don't think most of those pianists made those editions mostly to make money. I think they thought they had something to offer to other pianists.

I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to use an urtext edition, but I think its use is often given over importance in the overall picture.


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