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Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
#3016625 08/22/20 11:15 AM
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Hi all!

I've just become a member on this forum and wanted to ask a question to all the experts here as it is my first time buying a restored Steinway grand.

The one I am eyeing is a 1910 B model that has been fully restored using Steinway parts around ten years ago: hammer heads, shanks, flanges, felts, doe skins, bushings, strings, soundboard, regulation, voicing, case work, rollers, let off button mechanism, and even the brass action frame. However, Renner parts were used for action parts including the hammers shanks and flanges.

I am aware that Renner provides all the actions parts for Steinway Hamburg and that Steinway recently bought Renner but I just wanted to make sure that having Renner parts do not make the Steinway a "Steinwas".

I do apologise in advance if this is a silly question but I want to be 100% before paying £30k for the instrument.

Thank you!

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016640 08/22/20 11:38 AM
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FWIW, I think most members of this forum feel that the whole "Steinwas" business is just a Steinway marketing ploy. An excellent rebuild might well employ non-Steinway parts. I suppose that if you were to try to sell it, at some point, a prospective buyer might buy into the "Steinwas" business, but that seems unlikely.

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016649 08/22/20 12:01 PM
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The most important thing is to have a highly knowledgeable and independent from the rebuilder tech inspect the piano even if you like the piano a lot. It's possible that at ten years old the rebuild has hit a sweet spot for you as the buyer, i.e. significant depreciation of the price but little or no depreciation of quality since the rebuild. But the only way to find out is to find a great tech to inspect it.

I would worry far less about the kind of action parts as long as you like the piano's touch. But again, a tech can help you evaluate the quality of the rebuild work.

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016650 08/22/20 12:02 PM
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Only you can make the decision as to whether or not this piano is worth £30k. It may be a beautiful piano in excellent condition, and worth the price, but opinions will vary as to whether or not it's actually a Steinway any more.

Just go into it understanding that any claim that "all Steinway parts" were used in the restoration is probably not true unless the restoration was done by Steinway itself or all the parts came from other Steinway pianos. in my opinion the new soundboard, especially, is highly unlikely to be an actual Steinway soundboard - Steinway doesn't sell its soundboards to restorers. Here's an article about Steinway restorations that you may find interesting -> The 8 Myths of Buying A Used Steinway Piano.

Last edited by Pianosearcher; 08/22/20 12:10 PM.
Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016654 08/22/20 12:10 PM
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Steinway sources parts from vendors that meet their need and specs. The suppliers actually change with greater frequency than the Steinway model B's design has...so in the last 110 years, they've had quite a few.

Most performance restorations are concerned with using appropriate, high quality parts, with extensive labor to fit them all properly to the individual instrument. The parts matter, but far more important is the installation and execution.

Quite a few restorations are not geared towards overall performance, so that's where more serious issues arise. Still others that are budget oriented may perform well, but only for a more limited level of use.

It's difficult to become your own expert and advocate for restorations, but there is a great upside when you find a good one.

Importantly, for £30k, new or used, what other brand candidates including Steinways have you shopped? How does that Steinway compare in person to the others you've tried for that approximate budget? If it's your favorite, then do your best to dive deep and vet the work performed on that piano.


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Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
Pianosearcher #3016655 08/22/20 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianosearcher
Only you can make the decision as to whether or not this piano is worth £30k. It may be a beautiful piano in excellent condition, and worth the price, but opinions will vary as to whether or not it's actually a Steinway any more.

Just go into it understanding that any claim that "all Steinway parts" were used in the restoration is probably not true unless the restoration was done by Steinway itself or all the parts came from other Steinway pianos. in my opinion the new soundboard, especially, is highly unlikely to be an actual Steinway soundboard - Steinway doesn't sell its soundboards to restorers. Here's an article about Steinway restorations that you may find interesting -> The 8 Myths of Buying A Used Steinway Piano.
That article was written by a Steinway dealer, so how can it be unbiased?

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
pianoloverus #3016661 08/22/20 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
That article was written by a Steinway dealer, so how can it be unbiased?

The article is informative regardless. Readers can make up their own minds as to whether not it's biased. I fully understand that, coming from a Steinway dealer, it would make a strong case in favor of Steinway's positions. As it happens, I agree with most of what that article says, so I guess you'd call me biased too. And I doubt there is any article anywhere that could be referenced without someone claiming that it's biased in one way or another.

Last edited by Pianosearcher; 08/22/20 12:22 PM.
Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016673 08/22/20 12:46 PM
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As to Steinway's soundboards, significant marketing effort goes into creating doubt, not context. No manufacturer sells their soundboards because a soundboard is not a glue-in part, it is a custom fabricated system, fit to the variables of the wooden rim and cast iron plate, among others. What sounds like a logical argument is actually a speed bump before reality.

Steinway does naturally want to sell new instruments, and I can also affirm that many bad actors have tried to trade on the strong branding that Steinway has created, but it would be uninformed to begin and end at where the soundboard was installed. At best, Steinway has limited interest and bandwidth to restore just a few of the many thousands of restoration candidates. The restoration industry is half as old as Steinway itself, but complete, outside of the factory restoration were quite rare until 30 years ago. These wonderful vintage instruments are only getting older.

I hope that adds some healthy perspective from someone that doesn't just restore or just sell new & used pianos, that is a fan of Steinways but really appreciates a more diverse and competitive market of high-end pianos.


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Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
Pianosearcher #3016691 08/22/20 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianosearcher
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
That article was written by a Steinway dealer, so how can it be unbiased?
The article is informative regardless. Readers can make up their own minds as to whether not it's biased. I fully understand that, coming from a Steinway dealer, it would make a strong case in favor of Steinway's positions. As it happens, I agree with most of what that article says, so I guess you'd call me biased too. And I doubt there is any article anywhere that could be referenced without someone claiming that it's biased in one way or another.
There is a lot of incorrect information in that article. For example, the first item in the list of myths says:
Older pianos are better than new ones.
In the piano world, older is not better. In fact, pianos are at their peak performance during their first 10 years. The only people who make this “older is better” claim are those who sell or rebuild older pianos and those who simply aren’t well informed. Older pianos do not measure up to new pianos in two important areas: their tone does not have as great of a dynamic range and the action does not feel as responsive. While it is possible for older pianos to be acceptable to some players, the piano never plays or sounds as good as it did when it was new. The evidence is irrefutable. Whenever a performing arts center or music institution needs a new piano, they always look for a new one first. If older pianos were better, why would they not save money and buy a used piano instead? Over 95% of the major piano concerts in North America are performed on Steinway & Sons pianos that are typically 10 years of age – or NEWER
.

The whole comment is irrelevant because a completely rebuilt piano is nothing like an old piano. About the only parts that are not new are the plate and wooden frame. Each or at least most of the "myths" could be dealt with similarly.

The least biased articles/comments about Steinway rebuilds come from knowledgeable people who don't do rebuilds.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/22/20 01:38 PM.
Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016696 08/22/20 01:48 PM
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The OP is in the UK so I can probably chime in a bit here:

Regarding Steinway not selling soundboards to other people. Yes that's true, and it's not relevant to this piano since it is using the original soundboard anyway (which may or may not be in good condition - please get that checked!). What Steinway WILL do though, is install a soundboard into any Steinway piano if a technician asks them to do so. A technician can Steinway London and request them to fit a new soundboard and do the strings and bridges, and possibly wrest plank in Hamburg, for an astronomical fee of course. They won't sell a soundboard off the shelf for another rebuilder to install because it's such a difficult process anyway, each soundboard has to be custom fit to the rim.

OK back to the piano you're looking at. A Steinway B with new action parts for £30k is kind of in that awkward price bracket. If I LOVED the piano I'd be tempted to offer £25k, personally I don't think it will sell for £30K but I've been wrong about things before. New pianos you can get for that money include:

Yamaha C6X - 32K, C5X - 31k, C3X - 24K.

Boston 193 - £25k

Kawai GX3 is £19,000 from Chamberlain Music, I presume that this is a special deal and the other models will be similarly priced to the Yamahas.

A Petrof P194 costs just under £34k from Chris Venables.

A fully rebuilt Blüthner or Bechstein grand in the 6'3 to 7'6 range from Piano Restorations Ltd will cost in the region of £25 to £30k and they normally have entirely new actions and keyboards, and always have new wrest planks and soundboards

A fully rebuilt Steinway B from Piano Restorations will cost in the region of £35k to £45k and they always have new Steinway top actions, new Steinway keyboards, and new wrest planks and soundboards.

Remember that pre-ww2 Steinways did not have the patented diaphragmatic soundboards, and I've seen soundboards removed from Hamburg Steinways as young as the 1980s which are not "diaphragmed".

Note: I'm not saying you shouldn't buy this 1910 B for 30K, but if I was spending 30K there would be so many other options I'd look at first. For what it's worth I suspect that if this piano went to auction it would sell for £15 to £20k, and the £20k is a very generous estimate.

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
PianoWorksATL #3016698 08/22/20 01:52 PM
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It may be naive but isn't it most pianists' dream to own a Steinway/Fazioli at least once in their lifetime?
I'm one of those naive people and seeing the price in correlation to the state of the piano, I am very, very intrigued. But seeing how I'm not brimming with cash I am very troubled!
Thanks for your input.

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
Joseph Fleetwood #3016715 08/22/20 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Fleetwood
The OP is in the UK so I can probably chime in a bit here:

Regarding Steinway not selling soundboards to other people. Yes that's true, and it's not relevant to this piano since it is using the original soundboard anyway (which may or may not be in good condition - please get that checked!). What Steinway WILL do though, is install a soundboard into any Steinway piano if a technician asks them to do so. A technician can Steinway London and request them to fit a new soundboard and do the strings and bridges, and possibly wrest plank in Hamburg, for an astronomical fee of course. They won't sell a soundboard off the shelf for another rebuilder to install because it's such a difficult process anyway, each soundboard has to be custom fit to the rim.

OK back to the piano you're looking at. A Steinway B with new action parts for £30k is kind of in that awkward price bracket. If I LOVED the piano I'd be tempted to offer £25k, personally I don't think it will sell for £30K but I've been wrong about things before. New pianos you can get for that money include:

Yamaha C6X - 32K, C5X - 31k, C3X - 24K.

Boston 193 - £25k

Kawai GX3 is £19,000 from Chamberlain Music, I presume that this is a special deal and the other models will be similarly priced to the Yamahas.

A Petrof P194 costs just under £34k from Chris Venables.

A fully rebuilt Blüthner or Bechstein grand in the 6'3 to 7'6 range from Piano Restorations Ltd will cost in the region of £25 to £30k and they normally have entirely new actions and keyboards, and always have new wrest planks and soundboards

A fully rebuilt Steinway B from Piano Restorations will cost in the region of £35k to £45k and they always have new Steinway top actions, new Steinway keyboards, and new wrest planks and soundboards.

Remember that pre-ww2 Steinways did not have the patented diaphragmatic soundboards, and I've seen soundboards removed from Hamburg Steinways as young as the 1980s which are not "diaphragmed".

Note: I'm not saying you shouldn't buy this 1910 B for 30K, but if I was spending 30K there would be so many other options I'd look at first. For what it's worth I suspect that if this piano went to auction it would sell for £15 to £20k, and the £20k is a very generous estimate.


This has completely thrown me off!

My mind is firmly set on acquiring a Steinway, except with a lighter wallet...

The technicians told me that a new soundboard was fitted when it was restored a decade ago but I'll ask for clarification to whether that soundboard is indeed a genuine Steinway part.

I'm visiting the shop soon to try out a few different pianos, including the mentioned B model. In your personal opinion, do you think that I'm being ripped off by the seller?

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016728 08/22/20 03:17 PM
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OK that changes things a bit, if it has a new soundboard fitted. With a new soundboard, worry less about whether it's a genuine Steinway soundboard and worry more that the soundboard fitted to the piano functions properly, that the strings are fitted properly, that the down bearing is set correctly (these are all things that a technician can tell), that the wrest plank is secure. With a new soundboard fitted ten years ago the piano is worth more than my auction estimate IF it has been fitted correctly AND it still functions properly. The chances of a ten year old soundboard not functioning properly are slim to none.

Your question about the Renner parts - if the piano was restored in the UK with Steinway pattern Renner parts, these are identical to the parts Steinway would sell you. The difference is that the Steinway parts come in a sealed box with "Genuine Steinway Part" on it, and the Renner parts don't when you buy them from Renner. I don't know if that has changed since Steinway bought Renner or not, but you can rest assured that the parts, if fitted correctly, will function in exactly the same way as Steinway parts.

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016735 08/22/20 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ksr5219
Hi all!

====SNIP====
The one I am eyeing is a 1910 B model that has been fully restored using Steinway parts around ten years ago: hammer heads, shanks, flanges, felts, doe skins, bushings, strings, soundboard, regulation, voicing, case work, rollers, let off button mechanism, and even the brass action frame. However, Renner parts were used for action parts including the hammers shanks and flanges.
======SNIP======
Thank you!
Parsing through the OP's list and some of the comments, I'm confused.
  • Did this piano get a new soundboard? from Steinway? We know that COULD be the case, because independent rebuilders can, as mentioned by another here, send a piano to Steinway for that work. If that is NOT the case, then the original Steinway board is still in the piano and has been repaired?
  • I see no mention of wrest plank, or pinblock, as it's known here in the USA. Why wasn't THAT replaced when the board was replaced? What size pins are currently installed? That might help clarify the issue.
  • Hammer heads - I just had a set of Hamburg Steinway hammers installed on my piano from Renner, USA. I am told that these are Steinway hammers. Not sure if that is actually the case. I do believe that Renner IS making hammers to Steinway specs for Steinway.
  • IMO Renner shanks and flanges are equal to or better than anything that was ever in a NY Steinway. If Hamburg uses Renner, then you are getting what would be in a Hamburg piano (I believe).
  • At least as important are the repetitions, or wippens. Renner and Steinway NY are different. Can't speak to Hamburg. If the wippens weren't replaced, what service, if any was done on them to give more years of playing? How much wear is on them if original?
  • Price - competitive with what I've seen here in the USA for similar amounts of work.

Bottom line: unless you're interested in re-selling, 100% Steinway parts perhaps not of interest. Functionality with Renner parts, IMO as well as the techs with whom I deal, is at least as good with Renner. Beyond that the usual and customary Piano World Forums advice is relevant: when buying a piano other than brand new, have it inspected by an independent technician, one that you pay that is in now way on commission from the seller.


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Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
Joseph Fleetwood #3016739 08/22/20 03:59 PM
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Does Piano Restorations work with delivery to the US? They appear to do superior work esp with the option of the high end European models which are difficult to find in the US, eg older Bechstein Bosendorfer and Bluthner.

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016778 08/22/20 05:29 PM
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Piano Restorations will deliver to the USA but there are things to consider like import tariffs, whether the piano has ivory, and the actual cost of delivery.

Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016865 08/22/20 10:54 PM
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The original Steinway designs used lighter hammers and higher action leverages than they now use. Hamburg changed first sometime in the 1960's and NY in 1984. So one can easily argue that new or newish factory rebuilt Steinway's do not have original design intent. Same can be said for new Steinway's.

The heavier hammers wear faster and change tone quicker with use. They require making the action friction tolerances so low that the result is an action that develops destructive forces if played vigorously. In essence the heavier hammers and looser bearings result in the elastic limit of the materials being exceeded most of the time you are playing the piano. Of course how forcefully you are moving the keys plays a big role too. But a serious pianist playing a couple of hours a day for ten years is almost certain to completely wear the new action out.

Hamburg and NY factories do not use the exact same methods or materials to construct the soundboard and bridges. And both factories do not use the same methods and materials they used decades ago. This means there are many ways to make a soundboard for a Steinway piano and get good results.

It is very logical to conclude that all the "Steinwas" claims you hear from the marketing people are lies, and slander.


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Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3016995 08/23/20 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ksr5219
It may be naive but isn't it most pianists' dream to own a Steinway/Fazioli at least once in their lifetime?
I'm one of those naive people and seeing the price in correlation to the state of the piano, I am very, very intrigued. But seeing how I'm not brimming with cash I am very troubled!
Thanks for your input.
I thought this way until I realized that much of Steinway's success was due to their ability to capture the professional venue market in the early 20th century. This was a marketing success and while the quality of the pianos was a factor it wasn't the determining factor. The demise of European competition during and shortly after WW II increased Steinway's market dominance and they've held that position since, mostly because it would be prohibitively expensive for any other brand to build a concert and artists network that could match Steinway's.

Having shopped high end pianos I've played Bosendorfers, Bechsteins, Mason & Hamlin (you probably won't find them in the UK), Shigeru Kawai, Schimmel, Sauter, Sieler, Grotrian Steinweg (the original Steinway), August Forster, Yamaha and there may be some others I've forgotten. These were all very fine pianos, but they were different from each other and each had a unique sound and voice. Their fit and finish easily outmatched what Steinway provided at the time (2006). Steinway has improved their quality control recently but a few years ago I played a new B that was definitely sub par. I purchased an Estonia (you probably won't find them in the UK either) because it was a fine piano that cost quite a bit less. BTW, of the brands I listed above the ones I enjoyed most were Bosendorfer (if you're shopping at least try the VC 214) and Shigeru Kawai, and if you find an Estonia 210 check it out as well.

I know those will exceed your budget, but they will provide a useful experience in just how good a piano (that's not a Steinway) can be.

Last edited by Steve Chandler; 08/23/20 11:14 AM.

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Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3017051 08/23/20 02:07 PM
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One could argue that any Steinway that has been touched in any way after leaving the factory, with hands other than the original craftsmen is no longer a “Steinway”. Replaced hammers? New damper felts? Broken string replaced? It’s a tired and ridiculous concept. Machines need attention and repairs/replacements over their life.

Heck, by their own standards today’s brand new Steinway is already a “Steinwas”


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Re: Restored Steinway(Newbie**)
ksr5219 #3017158 08/23/20 07:35 PM
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So this leads me to a question. According to Steinway’s premise, if I were a real pianist, I’d be trading up my new Steinway every 10 years for a brand new one? I guess real pianists need to be married to or children of Saudi royalty? Just asking for a friend.....


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