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Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
BruceD #3014893 08/17/20 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
All the more reason, I think, that for learning and feeling four against three it is better to learn, faultlessly and in perfect time, each hand separately and then, when putting them together just aim for the beat where the two hands play together. Eventually, the notes will fall where they should.
Exactly thumb.

And this method works for any combination of polyrhythms known to man or beast, even two prime numbers.

Personally, I prefer not to fry my mathematical brain trying to subdivide a rhythm like 11:17, where you have to go up to 11 x 17 = 187 (I can feel my grey cells overheating already...) to get a common multiple into which the numbers can be subdivided.

When you come to a fork, always choose the path of least resistance: it's easier - Lao Tze Kung

Here is probably the best-known 4:3 (and 2:3) in the known universe (sorry about all the hyperbole, folks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqR1MS5E9Po


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
BruceD #3015051 08/18/20 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
[quote=JB_PW]

I agree that 3 against 4 is more difficult (for most of us) than 2 against 3. Could it perhaps be that in 2 against 3 the second of the duplet comes in the very middle of the triplet, i.e., half-way between the second and third triplet. Perhaps that makes it easier because it is less "lop-sided" than 3 against 4. In other words, it's easier to divide and to feel three by two (= 1.5) than it is to divide four by three (1.33333333). Therefore, it's also easier to play 2 against 3 very slowly, because you can point that second duplet right between the second and third triplets. Just a thought ....
I don't really think of 3:2 as a polyrhythm. It's just 1-2-&-3. Nor a big deal imo.

Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
BingoDingo #3015068 08/18/20 03:59 AM
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I also struggle with the 3-4 poly-rhythm. I can do 2-3 or 3-2 fairly easily, but 3-4 is an ongoing struggle. My last teacher said just try it until it happens - well it never did for me doing it that way.

The most useful video I have found is in fact for Chopin's fantaisie impromptu which is a piece that is well beyond my ability currently, but the video is useful for tackling poly-rhythms and I feel that if I tinker with this and get more of a feel for them, then one day I can perhaps try something as amazing as Chopin's impromptu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5itLZaqYx8

The method described in the video is to set your metronome to the speed you want to try to play, then:
1 - Play three notes of any broken chord in the left hand for each click of the metronome until you feel comfortable repeating the three notes.
2 - Play four notes of a broken chord or even a scale in the right hand to each click of the metronome. Repeat until this feels natural.
3 - Play one set of three notes in the left hand for the first click, then one set of four for the right hand for the next click. Repeat until it feels natural.
4 - At this point try playing a set with both hands together. If it sounds terrible, don't worry. Just go back to step 3 for a bit and try again.

Of all the methods that I have read about, this is the one where I most often get it right.

I'm not trying any pieces with this rhythm until I feel really comfortable with it using easy notes.


1971 Bernhard Steiner U-131 upright
Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
Moo :) #3015825 08/20/20 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
You need to multiply 3*4 and count for 12

1**2**3**4**
1***2***3***

? It is humanly impossible to count to 12. Was this a josh wright video? I know he can do this .

This may sound pedantic, but it works. I've done this for Scriabin.

In "Studying Rhythm", Anne Carothers Hall stresses that "it is important to practice the cross-rhythms slowly so as to ensure accuracy and quickly so as to arrive at the point where we hear not just the composite rhythm but each part independently." The book is really wonderful- I've used it for studying and teaching. It offers phrases for learning different polyrhythms- For 4 against 3, we say, "when will he come again?" while tapping with both hands (4 in the right, 3 in the left). For 3 against 4, "Wash the car and wax it!"
(For 3 against 2: "nice cup of tea"; 2 against 3: "pass the butter". It's fun and really effective:)).

Here is a pdf of the 4 against 3 chapter for anyone who is interested.

Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
Moo :) #3015877 08/20/20 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
You need to multiply 3*4 and count for 12

1**2**3**4**
1***2***3***

? It is humanly impossible to count to 12. Was this a josh wright video? I know he can do this .
Well, it's not necessary to pronounce numbers from 1 to 12, it may be counted as 123-123-... or ti-ta-ta-ti-ta-ta-... or 1234-1234-..., it's just necessary to have 12 syllables in a group to feel and remember this polyrhythm precisely.

Sorry I disagree. I think this is ridiculously complicated to worry about 12th of a beat. I was taught as I suggested and jazzprof has done to play the rhythm slowly. No one can hear such subdivisions of time unless the beat is epically slowly so even when doing it slowly I would t worry about mathematically time.

Up to speed you just concentrate on where the notes are together. I really don't think anyone learns as you suggested with 12th of a beat. This is just making something simple very complicated.

I agree that it's better in the long run to get a good feel for the two rhythms and synchronize them when they fall together but I don't see anything wrong with dividing up mathematically at the beginning. It's somewhat like counting exact notes in trills; useful at first until you get the hang of it then you just do them naturally without all the counting.

Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
BingoDingo #3015909 08/20/20 01:10 PM
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Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
bennevis #3015920 08/20/20 01:34 PM
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If you wish to subdivide go ahead. I cant say I understand this approach but if it works for you fine.

Originally Posted by bennevis
Personally, I prefer not to fry my mathematical brain trying to subdivide a rhythm like 11:17, where you have to go up to 11 x 17 = 187 (I can feel my grey cells overheating already...) to get a common multiple into which the numbers can be subdivided.

I find this rhythm very easy to play but it is essential you count first to 187 to make sure you have the correct 187th of the beat before playing up to speed. ;0

Who wrote such a horrible rhythm ?

Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
BingoDingo #3015947 08/20/20 02:35 PM
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Quote
Who wrote such a horrible rhythm ?
It's in the eleventh movement of my seventeen-movement magnum opus Sonate für une schönen brainy bleue tit, Op.111 (which is inspired by the theme from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seXURXJr0CY)


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
BingoDingo #3033015 10/07/20 07:58 AM
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I recently came across 4:3 in a piece I'm working. In addition to what has already been said here, I found the Polyrhythm feature of the metronome app to be useful if you are looking for something different to try. You can watch the bar rotate around the circle and keep your left and right hands in sync with the dots on the inner and outer circles. Of course, this probably won't help at full speed, but it might help to at least get started slowly.

Note, I did have to pay for the app to use the polyrhythm feature, but it's cheaper than Starcrack coffee.

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Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
BingoDingo #3033047 10/07/20 10:09 AM
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Learning almost anything in piano or almost anything is a process where one gradually becomes better and better at it. It wouldn't make much sense to ask how long it takes to learn scales or learn octaves. Those develop over a long period of time, hopefully getting better and better. It's the same thing with polyrhythms.

Re: How Long did 4-to-3 Take You?
BingoDingo #3033398 10/08/20 12:12 PM
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Hi

My party piece for decades now has been "Honky Tonk Train Blues", which has an 8 to the bar distinctive ostinato boogie-woogie LH part, over which (sometimes) a 6 to the bar RH part plays.

The way I learnt to play this was to play the LH until it was completely automatic, then when I didn't have to think about the LH part the RH part fell into place. Having a feel for that sort of music certainly helps!

I have very occasionally used the common denominator method for other rhythms, though this normally a last resort.

Cheers


Simon

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