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Re: Unpopular Opinions
AZNpiano #3013934 08/14/20 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My argument that most great pianists play xxx isn't supposed to make anyone like something. Influencing someone to give a composer or piece a second or even many additional looks is the most I would hope for. Just to give them second thoughts that maybe they are missing something. The "everybody" is not just a random group of people.

The dangers of your argument, citing "most great pianists," include offending people who disagree with your premise. It's like saying, "Well, if you don't like so-and-so, you must be dumb because 'most great pianists' play it and include it on recital programs." Without hearing your tone, it's easy for people to perceive your comment as insulting and condescending. Instead, you should try citing specific reasons why something is good or, if you must, why something is not good. That would be a more convincing argument.
I specifically said my intent was to at least give them second thoughts about composers or pieces they don't like. I think saying that so many great pianists play Schumann is an excellent argument for trying to sway them. At least as good as saying composer X's music is very original, has beautiful melodies, thrilling harmonies, or whatever description I would give. I also specifically said that part of my post was directed at those who just say "Composer X stinks"(without even an IMO) as opposed to " I don't like...".

Re: Unpopular Opinions
SiFi #3013940 08/14/20 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
Why does everyone hate Islamey so much? It's not the piece's fault that it's played a lot. It's also not the piece's fault that people who do play it seldom do so properly, paying attention to the actual notes and the unusually large amount of performance direction encoded in the score.

Ok, y'all can go back to hating on Schumann now.

Long story short: two measures loud, two measures soft for 8 minutes.

Re: Unpopular Opinions
pianoloverus #3013976 08/14/20 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
My argument that most great pianists play xxx isn't supposed to make anyone like something. Influencing someone to give a composer or piece a second or even many additional looks is the most I would hope for. Just to give them second thoughts that maybe they are missing something. The "everybody" is not just a random group of people.

The dangers of your argument, citing "most great pianists," include offending people who disagree with your premise. It's like saying, "Well, if you don't like so-and-so, you must be dumb because 'most great pianists' play it and include it on recital programs." Without hearing your tone, it's easy for people to perceive your comment as insulting and condescending. Instead, you should try citing specific reasons why something is good or, if you must, why something is not good. That would be a more convincing argument.
I specifically said my intent was to at least give them second thoughts about composers or pieces they don't like. I think saying that so many great pianists play Schumann is an excellent argument for trying to sway them. At least as good as saying composer X's music is very original, has beautiful melodies, thrilling harmonies, or whatever description I would give. I also specifically said that part of my post was directed at those who just say "Composer X stinks"(without even an IMO) as opposed to " I don't like...".


IMHO, you should find yourself a new argument.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
Brendan #3014033 08/15/20 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Brendan
Originally Posted by SiFi
Why does everyone hate Islamey so much? It's not the piece's fault that it's played a lot. It's also not the piece's fault that people who do play it seldom do so properly, paying attention to the actual notes and the unusually large amount of performance direction encoded in the score.

Ok, y'all can go back to hating on Schumann now.

Long story short: two measures loud, two measures soft for 8 minutes.

ha ha

9 minutes in my case. And you're forgetting all the accents at the end of all the two-measure phrases. That, of course, strengthens your argument.

However, when I played this in a masterclass with Olga Kern (excuse the name drop), she suggested that one should pull back on the accents after the first couple of pages and then, following the slow section (which is not at all based on an oriental theme, by the way), the 2+2 thing is definitely not so much of a thing smile. Olga was most emphatically of the opinion that the heavy accentuation and choppy phrase delineation that we hear in many performances should be smoothed out after the opening. I refer to her as Olga because we are on first-name terms. yippie

So liking Islamey is clearly an unpopular opinion in this forum. But in the spirit of collegial sharing of thoughts, I give you Andrei Gavrilov and challenge you to dislike the performance. Islamey was made for him, and he for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmHXLh_qab0


SRF
Re: Unpopular Opinions
SiFi #3014035 08/15/20 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
[...]
So liking Islamey is clearly an unpopular opinion in this forum. But in the spirit of collegial sharing of thoughts, I give you Andrei Gavrilov and challenge you to dislike the performance. Islamey was made for him, and he for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmHXLh_qab0

I may admire the performance, but it doesn't make me like the work.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Unpopular Opinions
SiFi #3014128 08/15/20 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
Originally Posted by Brendan
Long story short: two measures loud, two measures soft for 8 minutes.

ha ha

9 minutes in my case. And you're forgetting all the accents at the end of all the two-measure phrases. That, of course, strengthens your argument.

However, when I played this in a masterclass with Olga Kern (excuse the name drop), she suggested that one should pull back on the accents after the first couple of pages and then, following the slow section (which is not at all based on an oriental theme, by the way), the 2+2 thing is definitely not so much of a thing smile. Olga was most emphatically of the opinion that the heavy accentuation and choppy phrase delineation that we hear in many performances should be smoothed out after the opening. I refer to her as Olga because we are on first-name terms. yippie

So liking Islamey is clearly an unpopular opinion in this forum. But in the spirit of collegial sharing of thoughts, I give you Andrei Gavrilov and challenge you to dislike the performance. Islamey was made for him, and he for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmHXLh_qab0
I don't think liking Islamey is a particularly unpopular think on PW. As far as I know only a handful of people have expressed that opinion. Bruce is the (unofficial) president of the IHIC.

I certainly don't think it's as good as the best Liszt Hungarian Rhapsodies which I would put in the same type of piece, but I don't think it's a bad piece.

I never actually noticed the two soft, two loud thing although I've heard the piece 10-20 times including a few live performances. I do think the piece is too repetitious/overlong and could be shortened a little...kind of like most Alkan pieces. I listened to it yesterday with the score, and I'd say the two loud, two soft parts account for around two minutes of the piece.

Re: Unpopular Opinions
samwitdangol #3014184 08/15/20 10:06 AM
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Here’s another one... Bach is my favorite, but I find most of his fugue themes in both WTC boring.

Re: Unpopular Opinions
samwitdangol #3015617 08/19/20 02:40 PM
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I truly admire Islamey, even love it.

Liszt - long and boring (annes de peregrinage, Funerrailes) and lots of others. Recently I also listened to a set of Hungarian Rhapsodies. Few of them sounds like copy of each other. No wonder popular are only 2,6, 12,13 and 15.

Rachmaninov was truly great, but his first compositions are bit easy and naive... Of course, taking into consideration his later caliber.

Late Debussy preludes etc as someone wrote... Too abstract.

And - what is all about Gaspard de la nuit? Cascades of sound with no melody and no other things, made only to be harder than Balakirev work. I do not get this Ravel piece at all, while love most of others, not only piano. But sorry Gaspard.

Re: Unpopular Opinions
samwitdangol #3015627 08/19/20 03:00 PM
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I have a question. What do people mean when they describe music as "abstract?"

Re: Unpopular Opinions
impossiblejj #3015768 08/20/20 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by impossiblejj
And - what is all about Gaspard de la nuit? Cascades of sound with no melody and no other things, made only to be harder than Balakirev work. I do not get this Ravel piece at all, while love most of others, not only piano. But sorry Gaspard.

Oh god, this makes me so sad to read. Gaspard de la Nuit is magic. If there was any piece that could give you chills to your spine, that is a masterwork of story-telling and imagery and suggestion, this is it. I don't really believe this story about outdoing Islamey. Ravel may have said that, but I doubt these were his true intentions, and he might have been implicitly denigrating Islamey's value as a "super difficult piece". He probably meant, here is a piece where the most difficult piano technique becomes sorcery, seduction, horror, where thirds and octaves and repeated notes transform into rippling waves, moon rays, water spirits, dark depths of the sea, cathedral bells, a hanging corpse, a terrifying dwarf, a laughing nymph, an elusive ghost.


"Love has to be the starting point- love of music. It is one of my firmest convictions that love always produces some knowledge, while knowledge only rarely produces something similar to love."
Arthur Schnabel

Re: Unpopular Opinions
pianoloverus #3016205 08/21/20 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by SiFi
As for Islamey being pure trash (when is trash be pure?), Ronald Smith, Horowitz, Gavrilov, Kern, Berezovsky, Pogorelich, Pletnev, Kissin, Wang, and a host of other renowned pianists seem to have thought otherwise. Perhaps you should have used an IMO?

Ah yes, the Plover argument, everybody plays it. At any rate, it's in the thread title and I still need to say it?
Not just some random"everybody", but great pianists. I think "my" argument is perfectly reasonable, especially when applied to Schumann. I think he is one of the handful of greatest Romantic composers for the piano along with Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, and Schubert(if one classifies him as Romantic).

I think the only problem with Islamey is that it's a bit overlong and repetitive. No one's claiming it's a profound masterpiece, but I think it's quite good for an intended show piece with catchy and beautiful tunes an effective piano writing.

First of all, the word 'opinion' is in the thread title and still Sifi wanted an IMO. I recall he went through the trouble of learning it so I understand his desire to defend it. As to your argument of great pianists performing it, it's a show-off piece, of course they are going to perform it if it is at all popular at some time in history. I wouldn't expect Horowitz to opt for 'Little Brown Jug.'

Re: Unpopular Opinions
samwitdangol #3072805 2 hours ago
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I'll probably get backlash for this.

I think Baroque and Classical era music is inherently less expressive than Romantic music. I'm not saying the earlier styles were not beautiful, or that they could not communicate certain feelings in some way. Obviously they could, but the Romantics did it better. Nothing Bach or Mozart ever did can make me feel, so palpably, the tragedy contained in, say, the doppio movimento in Chopin Op. 48/1 (Rubinstein's being unequaled). I think it's a silly cliche to say things like "People see Bach as being mechanical and unemotional... Bach has all the emotion in the world!". Sure. Of course emotions come through in ways here and there (especially in religious works), but overall pre-Romantic music can't compete with Romantic music in this regard. They weren't meant to. The different periods served different purposes within the timeline of musical development. The Romantics gave the musical world certain things that were brand new at the time, the most important of which was an elevated realization of emotion.

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