2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
80 members (ambrozy, A. Lucato, 36251, Beansparrow, Aranel, 24 invisible), 745 guests, and 543 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
#3014934 08/17/20 04:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
P
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
Thanks all for taking the time to answer my previous pricing question on a new Bosendorfer 200. Recently we came across a Steinway that we are now considering, and I would like to seek your opinion on the possible comparison. For context, we are looking to upgrade from an old upright to a grand for my 7 year old son, who has been learning for about a year and making good progress, and my wife, who is an amateur pianist.

The two options we are considering are:

1. Brand new Bosendorfer 200: has been on the dealer floor for the past 2 years, price we are offered (after some negotiation) is $75K all in. Dealer willing to let me have an independent technician / appraiser to check it out.

2. Rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway Model O: recently rebuilt in Poland (by K&W Meyer, and sold through a local dealer), price we are offered is $60K all in. The piano has original soundboard, plate, and cabinet that have been restored; while others parts were replaced. This dealer is hesitant to let me get an independent technician to have a look at it, but offers 10 year warranty, and full value trade-up policy.

Both pianos play great, and my wife has a slight preference for the sound of the Steinway O. But the polish rebuilt and the inability to have someone independent look at it give me some pause (but I don't have any concrete concerns).

If affordability isn't a concern, which piano would you advise we go for? Is it worth it to get the rebuilt O for the $60K price point; if not, what price point would make it a no regret buy? I don't care too much about resale value etc., just want to get something that my family will enjoy for a while and relatively hassle free, and also has good value (in the sense that I don't want to pay $60K for something that's only worth $20K, but I don't mind paying $75K for something that's worth $60K).

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3014939 08/17/20 05:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 513
D
Platinum Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
Platinum Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 513
There is no price that will make a bad piano a no regret buy. Good new Steinway pianos are out there. There was one of six Bs that I and my teacher and tech liked. May take some looking. If I had choice of any new Bösendorfer vs a polish rebuild of a Steinway, done by some group I am unfamiliar with, I would go Bösendorfer all day long. I’m sure more experienced folks will respond.

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3014940 08/17/20 05:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,243
K
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,243
The Bose, unless there is something odd with it keeping it from selling for so long. The 200 is a superb piano and has that real 19th Bosendorfer DNA. We have had a few of these traded in the last couple of years and they were just beautiful. As an aside, I kind of wish Bosendorfer was not moving away from this piano's sound aesthetic, although if they are selling more of the new designs, well, no one asked me smile

Go ahead and have your tech check out the Bosendorfer 200 and if it passes with flying colors there is no doubt in my mind it is by far and unquestionably the better choice here.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3014941 08/17/20 05:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 575
W
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 575
I would pass on the O at that price. Especially If the seller won’t permit an independent inspection. I think they are much too proud of their work. They can make all the claims they want and you have no way to verify it was done properly.

Edited: I wasn’t paying attention but the O is only like 5’10”. There is no way in heaven that I would pay over $20,000 for any 115 year old Model O, no matter how good it is. I have seen superb late model L’s needing little more than case polishing, some tuning, and regulation selling for $10,000.

Just one opinion...

Last edited by WBLynch; 08/17/20 05:20 PM. Reason: additional remarks

-Bill L. - former tuner-technician
Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3014946 08/17/20 05:23 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,859
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,859
Yes, the dealer's unwillingness to let you have a tech inspect the Steinway O is a gigantic red flag IMO. Did he offer any reason for this? Even though the piano has a warranty, do you really want to go through that kind of hassle? What if the dealer is no longer in business? It's very important to remember that what's covered under a warranty is not always a black and white issue.

I think the price for the Steinway is also very expensive (unless it has a very fancy case) considering the soundboard has not been replaced even though that's more commonly done by European rebuilders. More expensive than the current NYC rebuilder price for fully rebuilt Steinway O's. It is true that Hamburg Steinways tend to sell at a premium compared to NY Steinways in the U.S.

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3014952 08/17/20 05:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 426
L
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 426
Originally Posted by PianoHunter123
I don't care too much about resale value etc., just want to get something that my family will enjoy for a while and relatively hassle free, and also has good value.

Assuming It passes the Tech inspection - a Brand new Bosendorfer 200, for $75K, would check those boxes for Me


~Lucubrate


Bösendorfer 280VC
Steingraeber 130

“First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.“ ~Epictetus
Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3014958 08/17/20 05:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 575
W
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 575
For comparison, there is a gorgeous restored 1920’s Model O Steinway on EBay right now for under $22,000. It’s in the Los Angeles area, from a Beverly Hills estate. A wonderful offer for fans of the model O.


-Bill L. - former tuner-technician
Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
WBLynch #3014960 08/17/20 06:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,859
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,859
Originally Posted by WBLynch
For comparison, there is a gorgeous restored 1920’s Model O Steinway on EBay right now for under $22,000. It’s in the Los Angeles area, from a Beverly Hills estate. A wonderful offer for fans of the model O.
But that's not a newly rebuilt O, I assume? IOW it's used piano, right?

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
pianoloverus #3014990 08/17/20 08:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
P
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Yes, the dealer's unwillingness to let you have a tech inspect the Steinway O is a gigantic red flag IMO. Did he offer any reason for this? Even though the piano has a warranty, do you really want to go through that kind of hassle? What if the dealer is no longer in business? It's very important to remember that what's covered under a warranty is not always a black and white issue.

I think the price for the Steinway is also very expensive (unless it has a very fancy case) considering the soundboard has not been replaced even though that's more commonly done by European rebuilders. More expensive than the current NYC rebuilder price for fully rebuilt Steinway O's. It is true that Hamburg Steinways tend to sell at a premium compared to NY Steinways in the U.S.

Here is the reason given to me for not allowing a third party inspection / appraisal "Most people who service pianos only know how to turn the tuning pins. When it comes to in-depth technical knowledge of the thousands of action parts, they do not have the experience to properly diagnose or correct the problems. This is one of the major reasons why we generally do not allow independent technicians to appraise our pianos. Unless they have visited our showroom (such as participating in the training meetings hosted in our showroom), they will not have had any experience with Hamburg Steinway (i.e. never seen one) or have good understanding of what constitutes as good rebuilding work or action work."

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3014998 08/17/20 08:53 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,859
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,859
Originally Posted by PianoHunter123
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Yes, the dealer's unwillingness to let you have a tech inspect the Steinway O is a gigantic red flag IMO. Did he offer any reason for this? Even though the piano has a warranty, do you really want to go through that kind of hassle? What if the dealer is no longer in business? It's very important to remember that what's covered under a warranty is not always a black and white issue.

I think the price for the Steinway is also very expensive (unless it has a very fancy case) considering the soundboard has not been replaced even though that's more commonly done by European rebuilders. More expensive than the current NYC rebuilder price for fully rebuilt Steinway O's. It is true that Hamburg Steinways tend to sell at a premium compared to NY Steinways in the U.S.

Here is the reason given to me for not allowing a third party inspection / appraisal "Most people who service pianos only know how to turn the tuning pins. When it comes to in-depth technical knowledge of the thousands of action parts, they do not have the experience to properly diagnose or correct the problems. This is one of the major reasons why we generally do not allow independent technicians to appraise our pianos. Unless they have visited our showroom (such as participating in the training meetings hosted in our showroom), they will not have had any experience with Hamburg Steinway (i.e. never seen one) or have good understanding of what constitutes as good rebuilding work or action work."
That generalization is far off the mark. Almost any RPT will know about voicing and regulation and what to look for to check out a piano. Why is the dealer willing to let you have someone inspect the Bosie but not the Steinway? A knowledgeable tech does not have to have experience with a particular make to be able to evaluate it.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/17/20 08:58 PM.
Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3014999 08/17/20 09:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
P
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
Just to clarify: the Steinway and the Bosie are at two different dealers. The Bosie is from an authorized Yamaha/Bosendorfer dealer, the Steinway is just local dealer without any specific affiliation that I know of.

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3015004 08/17/20 09:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 513
D
Platinum Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
Platinum Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 513
Put that Steinway out of your mind.

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
dhull100 #3015007 08/17/20 09:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 426
L
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 426
Originally Posted by dhull100
Put that Steinway out of your mind.

Particularly if You have a New Bösendorfer 200, for $75K, as an Option


~Lucubrate

Last edited by Lucubrate; 08/17/20 09:29 PM.

Bösendorfer 280VC
Steingraeber 130

“First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.“ ~Epictetus
Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3015037 08/18/20 12:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 19
M
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 19
No sure how to comment a rebuild 1905 Hamburg Steinway O - I think it is O180
since I saw similar model on my local piano shop for long time.

Size also matter in this case.

If choose only from these 2 Grand Pianos
I will go with Bosie 200 if you like the touch and tone
Just my 2 cents.

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3015054 08/18/20 02:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 369
H
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 369
There is no way that a rebuilt 5’10 Steinway O can be sold at $60,000. I’m quoting from Rich: “when you are buying a rebuilt piano, you are buying the rebuilder more than buying the manufacturer”. A rebuilt Steinway from Poland is, essentially a Polish piano instead of a Hamburg Steinway made in Germany. I would say don’t go for it if you are not confident on that rebuilding process. Not allowing tech inspection is another red flag.


Piano: Yamaha N3X
VST(preference in order): VSL Synchron Pianos, Vienna Imperial, Garritan CFX, VI Labs Modern U, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq
Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
dhull100 #3015055 08/18/20 02:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 575
W
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 575
Originally Posted by dhull100
Put that Steinway out of your mind.

This ^^^


-Bill L. - former tuner-technician
Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3015060 08/18/20 03:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 846
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 846
In 1905, Hamburg was still assembling NY pianos so it's not really a Hamburg Steinway and even if it was is not worth anything like what is being asked.

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
Harpuia #3015091 08/18/20 05:57 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,859
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,859
Originally Posted by Harpuia
There is no way that a rebuilt 5’10 Steinway O can be sold at $60,000. I’m quoting from Rich: “when you are buying a rebuilt piano, you are buying the rebuilder more than buying the manufacturer”. A rebuilt Steinway from Poland is, essentially a Polish piano instead of a Hamburg Steinway made in Germany. I would say don’t go for it if you are not confident on that rebuilding process. Not allowing tech inspection is another red flag.
Steinway O rebuilds in NYC are priced very close to 60K although those are for complete rebuilds including the soundboard. If the piano was rebuilt in Poland that does not make it a 'Polish piano" anymore than a Boesendorfer rebuilt in the U.S. is an American piano. If someone is familiar with the quality of the particular rebuilding shop in Poland who rebuilt this piano that's relevant, but dismissing it out of hand because the piano was rebuilt in Poland makes no sense I think. As I stated a while back, not allowing a tech inspection and then giving a nonsense reason why that's the case, is a good reason not to buy it.

Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
Harpuia #3015099 08/18/20 06:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,243
K
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content
4000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,243
Originally Posted by Harpuia
There is no way that a rebuilt 5’10 Steinway O can be sold at $60,000. I’m quoting from Rich: “when you are buying a rebuilt piano, you are buying the rebuilder more than buying the manufacturer”. A rebuilt Steinway from Poland is, essentially a Polish piano instead of a Hamburg Steinway made in Germany. I would say don’t go for it if you are not confident on that rebuilding process. Not allowing tech inspection is another red flag.

Top rebuilders do get 60k ( and more ) for a rebuilt O. If a new O is what, 85 - 90k, and the client who can afford either prefers the rebuilt O for its performance and finish and what comes with it ( service, rebuilder's warranty etc ) why wouldn't someone buy it at 60k, or for that matter, 85k or 90k or more? If I am in the market for something and I like it better, and can afford it, I buy it. Of course everyone makes a decision based on a number of contributing factors that add up to their purchase. Some may value performance more highly, and some may value who they are dealing with.
The other side of the same coin is there are many poorly done, poor performing Steinway rebuilds out there for say 30k or 40k. With some very good options in new pianos at those same prices and even at half those prices, no one is buying those "rebuilds" because of their performance.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: HELP: New Bosendorfer 200 vs. rebuilt 1905 Hamburg Steinway
PianoHunter123 #3015107 08/18/20 07:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,038
j&j Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,038
I’d get the Bosie assuming it passes your piano technician’s OK, without so much as a second thought. Bigger better size and essentially brand new.

Also, I’ve heard but don’t know for sure but some of the Steinway’s rebuilt in Poland, vary greatly in overall quality. Since the dealer won’t let an independent piano tech examine the Steinway rebuild, I’d just quickly cross that off my list.

But that’s me.
Best Wishes!


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
My piano’s voice is beautiful!
[Linked Image]
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Moving the Steinway Across the Country
by Greg Midi - 01/17/21 10:35 AM
First DP in 30 years
by Moggul - 01/17/21 10:24 AM
I just discovered music of Violet Archer
by iamandrew3 - 01/17/21 10:19 AM
Pianist Magazine's Online Courses
by bSharp(C)yclist - 01/17/21 10:00 AM
Performance crash and burn
by spartan928 - 01/17/21 09:51 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,324
Posts3,047,799
Members100,095
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4