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It's not coming naturally at all to me, how long should I expect to struggle? x(

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Tips and tricks?

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Bingo
You started studying the piano in June. Why are you concerned about learning polyrhythms???


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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In piano i did that for like after many years.
But tips and tricks are learning a god rhyme for it. With your foot stomp and make the sound "taka" for eightnotes. "Takataka" for 16th note and "takata" for triplets. Start using your left hand åretend-playing for keeping with the 16th and right hand for your triplets.
This is not easy - so if you are a beginniner. Wait a bit.

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You need to multiply 3*4 and count for 12

1**2**3**4**
1***2***3***

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I want to learn this one day to get secure in this rhythm. Chopin wrote it for a series - method of methods - which was where about 10 composers wrote pieces for.



It's like this:

Together, left hand, right hand, left hand, right hand, left hand,

I can do 4:3 like this quite easily and there is many threads on it if you look.

I think eventually in a piece you can just let it flow making sure you keep focus on when the notes are together but this takes skills and maybe an etude like the Chopin one above. It is very difficult. Unlike Reddit where every beginner is playing fantasies impromptu badly it can takes many years.

Interestingly I can't play this FI or this nouvelle etude 1 so I think it's harder to maintain this 4:3 polyrhythm for a length of tine. So even when a single 4:3 rhythm is very easy it can be much much harder to maintain it for a piece.

I think it is a reasonable query even if new to piano. Good luck!

Last edited by Moo :); 08/16/20 08:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
You need to multiply 3*4 and count for 12

1**2**3**4**
1***2***3***

? It is humanly impossible to count to 12. Was this a josh wright video? I know he can do this .

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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
You need to multiply 3*4 and count for 12

1**2**3**4**
1***2***3***

? It is humanly impossible to count to 12. Was this a josh wright video? I know he can do this .


Moo, finding the common denominator in the two rhythms is a common way of teaching the concept of polyrhythms

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b29H5RLcijs


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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It really doesn't work for this rhythm. You cannot count to 12 in a beat.

It requires different ways to teach complex polyrhythms. Chopin is one of the worst composer for polyrhythm m

How do you think we are taught to play this one? Complex polyrhythms require different strategies



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You must not have watched the instructional video. You learn to feel the rhythm by counting to 12 and playing each hand at the proper time. That is the beginning step in learning 4 vs 3, and not just on this one video. It is a mathematical problem.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Repeat after me: Pass the f***ing butter.
Or, if you are a more genteel kind of person, you can use this alternative:
Pass the stinking butter.

Now you are going to drum this phrase with your two hands, left (L) and right (R). You start with left and right together on "Pass" and then you alternate hands on the rest of the syllables:
Pass (L, R together)
The (R)
Stin- (L)
-king (R)
But- (L)
-ter (R)

Do this many times until the polyrhythm gets internalized.
There are also lots of online polyrhythmic metronomes that I found helpful, e.g.:
Bounce metronome (You need to uncheck the mute box.)


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I know how to do it. He is not correct as it is not how to do all polyrhythms. it does not work on all polyrhythms to split to the smallest denomination of a beat. The smaller denominator in 3:4 that you can count is 4. It is not 12. you cannot count or hear 12ths of a beat. Only josh wright can do this. You can draw lines for the three to see where they are played in relation to the 4. It has the feel of what I described above. I'll let the other pianists and teachers give their view.

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Originally Posted by jazzyprof
Repeat after me: Pass the f***ing butter.
Or, if you are a more genteel kind of person, you can use this alternative:
Pass the stinking butter.

Now you are going to drum this phrase with your two hands, left (L) and right (R). You start with left and right together on "Pass" and then you alternate hands on the rest of the syllables:
Pass (L, R together)
The (R)
Stin- (L)
-king (R)
But- (L)
-ter (R)

Do this many times until the polyrhythm gets internalized.
There are also lots of online polyrhythmic metronomes that I found helpful, e.g.:
Bounce metronome (You need to uncheck the mute box.)

My other post was referring to dogperson. I agree with you post.

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Originally Posted by BingoDingo
It's not coming naturally at all to me, how long should I expect to struggle? x(

For most normal players it usually is a struggle for poly-rhythms. I still have trouble with them after 40+ years. Jazzyprof has the right approach.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Bingo
You started studying the piano in June. Why are you concerned about learning polyrhythms???

I think in a month time, he can start playing some Chopin etudes. He will need to fully master polyrhythm by then. I think a couple of weeks of training should be plenty enough time.

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Unless the tempo is extremely slow, I think almost all players just make the first note of each hand's grouping coincide and the rest falls into place naturally and correctly. Certainly that applies for the Fantasie Impromptu and the Nouvelle F minor Etude. IMO most of the above discussion is an example of needlessly complicating something and not the way someone ready to play those pieces does things.

Practicing these 4 vs. 3 sections slowly is a waste of time. If one can't play them at a reasonable fast tempo one should practice hands separately first.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Unless the tempo is extremely slow, I think almost all players just make the first note of each hand's grouping coincide and the rest falls into place naturally and correctly. Certainly that applies for the Fantasie Impromptu and the Nouvelle F minor Etude. IMO most of the above discussion is an example of needlessly complicating something and not the way someone ready to play those pieces does things.

Practicing these 4 vs. 3 sections slowly is a waste of time. If one can't play them at a reasonable fast tempo one should practice hands separately first.

The hands can fall together naturally and correctly IF executing the polyrhythm has become natural. When you are a beginner, it is not natural and you need to learn where the notes should fall.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Unless the tempo is extremely slow, I think almost all players just make the first note of each hand's grouping coincide and the rest falls into place naturally and correctly. Certainly that applies for the Fantasie Impromptu and the Nouvelle F minor Etude. IMO most of the above discussion is an example of needlessly complicating something and not the way someone ready to play those pieces does things.

Practicing these 4 vs. 3 sections slowly is a waste of time. If one can't play them at a reasonable fast tempo one should practice hands separately first.

The hands can fall together naturally and correctly IF executing the polyrhythm has become natural. When you are a beginner, it is not natural and you need to learn where the notes should fall.
Beginners should not be working on 4 vs. 3, and it's hard to find a beginner piece with that problem. That's why there are so many PW posts about the difficulty with that in Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu. I think almost anyone technically ready to play that piece would handle the polyrhythm the way I suggested irregardless of their prior experience with 4 vs. 3. That's the way I approached it although I had little or no experience with 4 vs.3 at the time.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Bingo
You started studying the piano in June. Why are you concerned about learning polyrhythms???
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Beginners should not be working on 4 vs. 3, and it's hard to find a beginner piece with that problem.

I would like to emphasize this point. BingoDingo why are you trying to do all these things that are normally learned only after a couple of years - voicing, legato chords, and now polyrhythms? If you expect your progress to be better you're in for some disappointment. It's more likely that you will build up tension that leads to bad technique, which it seems is already the case since you complained about pain in one of your previous posts. Maybe it's time to forget about this stuff and focus on your basics first, don't you think?

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I've learnt quite a time ago that an adult leopard never changes its spots.

I believe the OP is just about ready to tackle Islamey (the unsimplified version, though I don't know of any other) in about ten days' time. By then, he'll have mastered prime number polyrhythms like 7:11 and 13:17.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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