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Scientists do the same thing: search for facts, accumulate these facts and rationalize them. And they are not immune from the urge to search for those facts that support their ideas.
The question becomes: who’s rationalization is correct or true?
So much dichotomy out here is a reflection of unreliable and multiple rationalizations of the virus phenomenon to say nothing of egos and other less ethical motivations be it political power or financial.
Sorry but so much science comes across as absolute but almost all is partial and incomplete, even erroneous sometimes.
Also, the facts are not the science, science is more of a method.


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Trying to find the facts you want to find isn't scientific. Rifling through data and cherry picking what supports your arguments is the opposite of scientific. Considering all the facts is scientific. Trying to disprove a hypothesis is scientific.

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Rationalizing facts is meaningless without an axiom, an idea, a starting point.
Ideas are personal based on experience and other things to include bias.
The scientific method includes trying to disprove that starting point.
Most people have bias. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s personal experience.
If we had real facts about the virus we would not be having disagreements.


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One of the things that kept on bothering me is that, if our "positivity rate" (whatever that means!?) continues to be around 7%, then what is going on with the other 93%? They have the flu?

For the longest time I was unable to get a COVID test because I don't show any symptoms, and only symptomatic people can go get tested. So if only 7% of those people have COVID, it's a little scary to think how many more people around them are sick with something else.

Frankly, with all the other problems going around in California (a computer glitch being the latest snafu), I have less and less faith in the "science" that the state and local government is presenting to us.


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I found the information presented by this Doctor to be helpful: http://www.docbastard.net/

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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
One of the things that kept on bothering me is that, if our "positivity rate" (whatever that means!?) continues to be around 7%, then what is going on with the other 93%? They have the flu?
For the longest time I was unable to get a COVID test because I don't show any symptoms, and only symptomatic people can go get tested. So if only 7% of those people have COVID, it's a little scary to think how many more people around them are sick with something else.
At present, I don't think it's true anywhere in the U.S. that one must have symptoms to get a test. That was some time perhaps a long time ago at least in NYC. So 7% positivity doesn't mean the other 93% have some symptoms but it's not Covid.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
One of the things that kept on bothering me is that, if our "positivity rate" (whatever that means!?) continues to be around 7%, then what is going on with the other 93%? They have the flu?
For the longest time I was unable to get a COVID test because I don't show any symptoms, and only symptomatic people can go get tested. So if only 7% of those people have COVID, it's a little scary to think how many more people around them are sick with something else.
At present, I don't think it's true anywhere in the U.S. that one must have symptoms to get a test. That was some time perhaps a long time ago at least in NYC. So 7% positivity doesn't mean the other 93% have some symptoms but it's not Covid.
v

Testing on request is not universally available in the US, so there are places that you must have symptoms or close contact to be tested.


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Yes, let us not allow expertise to get in the way of anyone’s confidence!

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It seems that there's a light wrong turn taken here. I don't think anyone's really debating about Covid itself. It is what it is, and the jury is still out, seeing as it's a new virus. We simply have not had enough time to fully get to grips with it.

The point I'm raising is -

There is debate among the scientific community about the correct way for societies to deal with Covid. Whether to have lockdowns, no lockdowns, parital lockdowns, what distance is correct for social distancing, where to wear masks etc. and what to keep open and what to shutdown - this is apparently obvious from the different claims made by different experts from different Countries and different organisations. There is, quite obviously, disagreement among the scientific community about this.

I quote from Jay Battacharia of Stanford :

"It's not lives vs livelihoods, it's lives vs lives".

And quote no. 2 :

"Lockdowns are for viruses with low infection rates and high death rates, such as Ebola. They are not the correct way to deal with viruses with high transmission rates and low death rates, such as Covid".

Battacharia warns against the dangers of prolonged blanket lockdowns, and instead suggests that the solution is more subtle and complex. A solution has to be arrived at that not only protects the vulnerable, but also protects the economy, and indeed, ensures that those that require medical treatment for other conditions are not lost in the Covid hysteria. In other words - lives vs lives.

The propsed statement is that Governments have overreacted in a blanket way to Covid, and in doing so have placed other lives at risk. Also, there has not been enough debate over the correct way of dealing with this.

For example (and no, it's not set in stone, it's only one article, but it's an example):

https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/20/coronavirus-lockdown-cause-200000-extra-deaths-13014848/

Whetehr it be correct or not, this is surely worrying and worth taking in to consideration.

There are two things that I am interested to know from certain among you :

What do you believe is the correct solution for dealing with Covid? Or do you perhaps think it varies from Country to Country?

On the meat issue - what are you suggesting? Complete eradication of people eating meat? Or is it just to do with mass battery farming etc.?

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Yes Thank You ,and thank you for caring too ! Some people here could learn a great deal just by caring for others.The misinformation here by people who have NO medical qualifications or experience is really sad !
And they they have the nerve to talk of science !!!

In response to this:

You can refer to me by name, I'm certainly no snowflake.

Are you suggesting that people can not pass on information unless they are medically qualified? For example, I can not pass on quotes by Jay Battacharia because I do not have medical qualifications? This rather stifles the debate, do you not think?

I am not stating the proposals that I make on this thread as "science". I am passing on information that I have gleaned from medics, virologists, immunologists, etc. by studying articles and videos by them. I am simply passing on information. Don't shoot the messenger.

Is this or is this not open for debate?

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The correct solution for dealing with Covid is to avoid groups of people.

Wear a mask when in a public enclosed space or a crowded open space.

Wash your hands before eating.

If you think you have been exposed to Covid, get tested and stay quarantined until you get the results. If positive, stay quarantined for 14 days or until your illness ends if you come down with it.

Support public policy to research medical interventions.

And avoid making this disease a political topic.

So far a significant number of my fellow Citizens have failed to adhere to this advice. With the result being both excess deaths and a ruined economy.

So just remember what the orange idiot once asked voters; "What have you got to lose?"


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Well, if we're talking about us americans, it's more practical to simply ASSUME you've got the virus, and plan accordingly. The testing systems are simply not widely available or timely enough for it to make any difference in our lives/ schedule.

The testing is only important if it worked, and enough people had access with results within 2 days. Otherwise, the kind of lead times they're posting up to a month or 2, that result is now worthless.

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Originally Posted by Zaphod
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Yes Thank You ,and thank you for caring too ! Some people here could learn a great deal just by caring for others.The misinformation here by people who have NO medical qualifications or experience is really sad !
And they they have the nerve to talk of science !!!

In response to this:

You can refer to me by name, I'm certainly no snowflake.

Are you suggesting that people can not pass on information unless they are medically qualified? For example, I can not pass on quotes by Jay Battacharia because I do not have medical qualifications? This rather stifles the debate, do you not think?

I am not stating the proposals that I make on this thread as "science". I am passing on information that I have gleaned from medics, virologists, immunologists, etc. by studying articles and videos by them. I am simply passing on information. Don't shoot the messenger.

Is this or is this not open for debate?
Well "gleen" more carefully ! Actually all this misinformation is actually dangerous and I think the moderators should intervene.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 08/09/20 12:31 PM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Well "gleen" more carefully ! Actually all this misinformation is actually dangerous

Examples? Or just simply the fact that someone thinks differently from you? Are you saying that for example, Jay Battacharia is wrong? And on what authority are you saying that?

You keep claiming "misinformation" - but you never state exactly how.

What about the information you have gleaned? I suppose that is correct by default, yes?

Originally Posted by Lady Bird
and I think the moderators should intervene.

Because someone says something you don't agree with, you're calling on the authorities to have them silenced? That's a reprehensible attitude.

Is it not possible we can have a measured debate, with different information and points of view ventured?

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I see the falsehood that it is lockdown that is killing people is continuing to be promoted.

We have hard evidence that lockdown is not the cause of excess deaths we see around the world, I've provided that evidence repeatedly in this thread. That New Zealand with a harsh lockdown has no excess deaths, covid related or otherwise. Yet Zaphod has wilfully misinterpreted what I have said because it does not fit their narrative. I have seen Zaphod do similarly to others or just ignore their salient points so Zaphod can return to their pet theme later.

I am calling Zaphod out that they are arguing in bad faith and that this has been repeatedly demonstrated in this thread and that there is no intention of engaging in any concrete way.

When others get frustrated with Zaphod's lack of real engagement Zaphod responds to their expressed frustration with false accusations of being silenced, when that clearly has not been the case.

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Originally Posted by Zaphod
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Well "gleen" more carefully ! Actually all this misinformation is actually dangerous

Examples? Or just simply the fact that someone thinks differently from you? Are you saying that for example, Jay Battacharia is wrong? And on what authority are you saying that?

You keep claiming "misinformation" - but you never state exactly how.

What about the information you have gleaned? I suppose that is correct by default, yes?

Originally Posted by Lady Bird
and I think the moderators should intervene.

Because someone says something you don't agree with, you're calling on the authorities to have them silenced? That's a reprehensible attitude.

Is it not possible we can have a measured debate, with different information and points of view ventured?
I am not calling or reporting anyone .I actually very rarely do that .
And for your information I have had both my pianos tuned as I always do this time of the year.
Was I nervous , yes I was .But took as much care as I could and so did he.
If you think this thread will encourage people to call for tuning etc , you are incorrect !
People who do not believe in the inherent dangers of infection, death and long term disability because of Covid19 do not encourage clients to phone up and ask for thier pianos to be tuned !

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Zaphod is exhibiting all the symptoms of a TROLL. Perhaps he should be quarantined for 14 days from PW.

He also shows all the symptoms of a mind infection that results in (not in a good way) "Magical Thinking".

Next thing you know he will be claiming we who "disagree" with him are trying to "kill" God or some other silly outrage.

He is certainly entitled to his opinions, but he doesn't get to make up his own facts.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
He is certainly entitled to his opinions, but he doesn't get to make up his own facts.

When have I ever stated anything as fact? This is a straw-man. You either are doing it knowingly or you're deliberately misrepresenting what I say for bombastic effect.

As for your insane rantings about me being a "troll" and indulging in "magical thinking" just for presenting different information, get off your high horse. Your statement is disgracefully sanctimonious and arrogant.

Originally Posted by KevinM
I see the falsehood that it is lockdown that is killing people is continuing to be promoted.

The claim is that lockdowns potentially WILL kill people, not HAVE killed people. It appears to be a long term prediction. And you are presenting it as a set-in-stone falsehood, much more a claim of fact than I've ever made.

The numerous articles, suggestions and claims on this would in fact suggest that this is in no way yet to be considered a "falsehood". Which is not to say, either, that it is true. It is simply a factor in the equation that has to be considered very carefully.

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I understand its a very difficult and stressful time for many technicians now, so I can understand this.
We go through denial to try and survive. Its happened to myself at different times in my life. At the moment all I wish for is for an end to this virus.

I hope Zaphod does not get "quarantined", I certainly did not report him.Although being "quarantined" from PW can help one "let go" and do something more positive,so one may return refreshed and more relaxed.I should know because I have been there.
Life goes on however......

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I am not calling or reporting anyone .I actually very rarely do that .

I would say that a public request for the "Moderators to intervene" is actually just that.

Originally Posted by Lady Bird
If you think this thread will encourage people to call for tuning etc , you are incorrect

I don't know where you got this from. I think people should make up their own minds about having their pianos tuned.

Originally Posted by Lady Bird
People who do not believe in the inherent dangers of infection, death and long term disability because of Covid19 do not encourage clients to phone up and ask for thier pianos to be tuned !

I'm not sure I follow your logic. You're saying that people who "don't" believe in the danger do NOT encourage people to have their pianos tuned? Surely that should be people who DO believe in the danger would not encourage it? Also, who has ever stated that they don't "believe" in the dangers of Covid? Who are these people you talk about?

You have to quantify this danger and evaluate the risk accordingly. It is up to the individual. I don't think that anyone should have their piano tuned if they don't want to due to nerves about Covid. And similarly, no one should feel coerced in to tuning anyone else's piano for the same reason.

Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I understand its a very difficult and stressful time for many technicians now, so I can understand this.
We go through denial to try and survive. Its happened to myself at different times in my life. At the moment all I wish for is for an end to this virus.

I hope Zaphod does not get "quarantined", I certainly did not report him.Although being "quarantined" from PW can help one "let go" and do something more positive,so one may return refreshed and more relaxed.I should know because I have been there.
Life goes on however......

No one is denying anything.

If I get quarantined, I get quarantined. I won't hold it against you or anyone else. I understand your point of view, and respect it, and also uphold your right to express it. I also wish you the very best and believe that you should not be coerced in to doing anything that makes you nervous, at this worrying time.

I do worry for freedom of discussion though. Not necessarily referring to you, but this awful scapegoating supercilious mob-mentality displayed by a group of people on this thread against anyone who expresses a different opinion is abhorrent.

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