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Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
#3011546 08/08/20 01:01 PM
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I just saw this article from Sweetwater in my email, and thought I'd share it here for anyone who is not subscribed to them. I think it could be very helpful for anyone looking at a new DP and wondering how heavy/light the action is compared to something they may have played before!

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/k...edium=email&utm_campaign=20200807-t2

There's a handy PDF that you can download as well. Hope you find it as useful as I did!


Current gear: Roland DP603, Pianoteq 6 Pro
Previous gear: Yamaha CVP203 > Roland RD700SX
Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3011571 08/08/20 02:00 PM
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Interesting. Don't the P45 and P125 have the exact same action? That points to a major problem in the data. Also, it's too bad not to see a Kawai RH3 action represented on the large list of measured keyboards.


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Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
terminaldegree #3011617 08/08/20 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Interesting. Don't the P45 and P125 have the exact same action? That points to a major problem in the data. Also, it's too bad not to see a Kawai RH3 action represented on the large list of measured keyboards.

DGX-660 as well, so for the venerable GHS action we have a range of 72g to 97g, representing the lightest tested action to within the 10 heaviest.

Whenever I see these, I wonder what numbers they would get if they measured 3-4 of the same model.

Also, they tested until the keyboard generated sound, which will create an artificial difference between actions with an escapement simulation and those that do not (as I understand, acoustic piano techs do not test downweight to the sounding of the note).


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Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3011642 08/08/20 05:03 PM
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I wish they had tested the MODX8. When I played a MODX8 next to a DGX660, I thought the DGX felt nice and quick, and the MODX8 felt sluggish. And as Gombessa alludes to, I wonder if it's a model-to-model variation or a unit-to-unit variation.

Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3011687 08/08/20 06:39 PM
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I don't think they followed the same measurement criteria that others (here and elsewhere) have touted.

Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3011731 08/08/20 08:39 PM
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This is certainly on the right track. They're measuring the strike force relative to a sound criteria.

But what we're really looking for is a resistance CURVE. The resistance curve is really what tells the users/ prospective buyers what the Keys might feel like, in relative terms.

If the Sweet water folks monitor these threads. Please have your engineers construct one of these Force Curve meters.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=15133

Last edited by jeffcat; 08/08/20 08:43 PM.
Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3011737 08/08/20 09:05 PM
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Too much analysis!

There's an easier way. Just put your fingers on the keys. Play.

Like it? It's good.
Don't like it? It's bad.
Justify your opinion to others? There's no need.

All done.

Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3011742 08/08/20 09:41 PM
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It is interesting that many of the semi-weighted keyboards are actually heavier than the fully-weighted actions. I’m familiar with many of the actions, so the rankings put things in perspective.

Unfortunately, the article notes that they didn’t measure for dynamic response, which is what I think we are really interested in. Would love a part two where they measure the force curve (acceleration/deceleration) and then rank the actions from there. That would be a very interesting perspective.


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Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
MacMacMac #3011743 08/08/20 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Too much analysis!

There's an easier way. Just put your fingers on the keys. Play.
+1

Those static weight numbers (or other specs by themselves) say very little about a DP action. I don't care if a DP has 29 sensors per key or if it can recognize my fingerprints. I'll decide if I like it when I test it.

Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
Groove On #3011745 08/08/20 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Groove On
It is interesting that many of the semi-weighted keyboards are actually heavier than the fully-weighted actions.

Unfortunately, the article notes that they didn’t measure for dynamic response, which is what I think we are really interested in. Would love see a part two where they measure the force curve and rank the actions from there.

They're not heavier, the actuation cut-off, which is what they're measuring, is far more dependent on the size of the carbon contacts, the amount of electrical chatter, the debounce algorithm, the smoothing and polling frequency, and also the FRICTION of the mechanism's design. If the joints are thinner, or use a smaller radius, it would have less friction but be less durable, things like that.

Last edited by jeffcat; 08/08/20 09:51 PM.
Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3011913 08/09/20 01:24 PM
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Different results from a tester on the Keyboard Corner
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3021637/2
[Linked Image]

Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3011935 08/09/20 02:04 PM
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Weren't these results widely ridiculed some months ago?

Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
MacMacMac #3011943 08/09/20 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Weren't these results widely ridiculed some months ago?

Indeed. More than once. But the chart looks so very official! wink


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Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
TheophilusCarter #3012004 08/09/20 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Weren't these results widely ridiculed some months ago?

Indeed. More than once. But the chart looks so very official! wink

Those charts are not to be compared they're measuring very different things.

The Sweetwater chart is <Relative to sound>, the other chart is just the mechanical downweight.

For example, it may only take 60g for a key to go down, but it takes 73g of weight on that same key to make it register a sound.

This is why we need a RESISTANCE CURVE. The way sweetwater did it is useful, but not what consumers are looking for.

Last edited by jeffcat; 08/09/20 04:29 PM.
Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
jeffcat #3012009 08/09/20 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Weren't these results widely ridiculed some months ago?

Indeed. More than once. But the chart looks so very official! wink

Those charts are not to be compared they're measuring very different things.


Indeed, but that's not what (Mac)x3 and I were getting at ... smile


Decent upright bassist; aspiring decent pianist
Present: Roland DP-603, Roland FP-30, Casio CDP-130
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Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3012014 08/09/20 04:40 PM
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These charts can't be compared to each other, their methodologies are all different (and neither are standard, wrt acoustic piano measurements).

I don't know exactly why acoustic piano techs don't count the escapement in the downweight, but I suspect it's because there are very specific issues to address by different regulation techniques, and static downweight is just one of several metrics to consider; whereas for DPs there is no adjusting the distance or resistance of the escapement, hammer blow speed, or really anything else, it's just a single notion of "action heaviness."


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Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3012020 08/09/20 04:54 PM
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For an acoustic the downweight really should not include movement through the escapement.

For maintenance purposes the downweight gives clues wear or binding in the balance pins and bushings. Escapement is not relevant in this measurement.

In manufacturing it give clues as to the counterweights required to regulate the keys. Again, escapement is not relevant.

Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3012030 08/09/20 05:18 PM
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I find the Casio PX-S3000 action more fatiguing than the Kawai ES110 action, I owned both, side by side, at the same time. By Sweetwater's numbers the ES110 is heavier. But the down-weight numbers on the Keyboard Corner chart the Kawai is lighter. Sweetwater rates the FP90 action as lighter, but I find it plays heavier and more sluggishly than the ES110. Sweetwater's numbers seem false to me.


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Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
ivorytux #3012052 08/09/20 06:44 PM
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A likely egregious error in Sweetwater's analysis is not accounting for how different pianos handle a Note On velocity of 1. Some pianos create a sound at velocity value 1, others do not (permitting a silent keypress that still activates sympathetic resonances for other keys). The latter would need more force to generate an audible sound, simply because it better emulates something you can do on a real piano, i.e. press a key all the way down and not generate a sound. It demands more force to make any sound at all, and it would generate a higher number on the chart, but once you pass that threshold of initial audibility, who knows whether it actually needs more force to play or not? The numbers on the chart won't tell you that. He would probably have been better off choosing an organ sound rather than a piano sound, which should provide same volume at any velocity from one up.

I also think combining hammer and non-hammer actions in the same comparison was kind of pointless, they don't at all behave the same way, it's not like "semi weighted" means less weight, which is a common erroneous belief.

Re: Weight comparisons of 37 DP keybeds
MacMacMac #3012053 08/09/20 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Weren't these results widely ridiculed some months ago?

These charts meaning the one I shared, what rintincop posted, or both?


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