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7 sharps
#3010556 08/05/20 05:29 PM
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Has anyone played this wonderful piece and if so why does it have so many sharps in the key signature ? It might be a little challenging for me atm but just wondering about the key signature. I have never seen 7 sharps before so very intrigued. Is it not possible to rewrite in another key to make write with flats.


Last edited by Moo :); 08/05/20 05:29 PM.
Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010557 08/05/20 05:44 PM
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You could rewrite it in Db, but then you'd still have 5 flats, so I'd suggest saving the time...

OR you could play it in C, use the exact same notes, but on the white keys, a double sharp would become a sharp... (Only joking, but it would work!)

Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010561 08/05/20 05:59 PM
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This is a fantastic Prelude and Fugue and you should work on it. As you struggle a bit with the key it will begin to make more and more sense and get to the point where playing in C# feels as intuitive as any other key. It isn't that big a deal, really. You will probably mis read some notes and recognize they sound wrong and as you correct yourself it will get easier to play this key.


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Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010571 08/05/20 06:23 PM
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Thank you. I didnt realise it was also D flat with 5 flats. Enhamonic. I think I will need to wait until I have lessons to manage this one.

Maybe you'll could help please please with the piece I am learning. I have another piece I am trying to learn but I dont understand why the notation is different. Is it a french thing ?
There is a semibreve b flat at bar 32 i think which is hugged by two swiggles. How on earth is that one played ?


Last edited by Moo :); 08/05/20 06:23 PM.
Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010574 08/05/20 06:26 PM
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I mean the notation of the ornaments. It has swiggles on the minums for a lower mordent and a double swiggle on the b flat in bar 32 which is the mystery.

Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010578 08/05/20 06:35 PM
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You can try to figure out the ornaments from the recording.

Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010580 08/05/20 06:37 PM
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I am only stuck one ornament, that one in bar 32, the others I could make out from the recording or from the ornament chart in the bach book.

Last edited by Moo :); 08/05/20 06:38 PM.
Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010581 08/05/20 06:40 PM
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It sounds like a delayed lower mordant to me but I would like to know what if there is someone who knows the what the double swiggle means

Re: 7 sharps
Eric399 #3010587 08/05/20 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric399
You could rewrite it in Db, but then you'd still have 5 flats, so I'd suggest saving the time...

OR you could play it in C, use the exact same notes, but on the white keys, a double sharp would become a sharp... (Only joking, but it would work!)

Two points:

1) Cecil Grey (The Forty-Eight Preludes and Fugues of J.S. Bach. London, Oxford University Press, 1938, p. 87) writes that the Prelude and Fugue III from Bk II, written in the same key (C-sharp major) were originally written in C major and "... obviously only transposed up a semitone in order to fill a vacant space in the key-sequence." He does not say the same about the Prelude and Fugue from Bk I.

2) In the Peters Edition of the WTC, Bk II, both the Prelude and Fugue are published in D-flat major, instead of its enharmonic - and traditional - C-sharp major. No explanation given.

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Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010596 08/05/20 08:00 PM
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If Bach's harpsichord was not tuned using equal temperament when he composed or played WTC (or at least this prelude & fugue), then C# and Db would not be likely to have been the same keys on his instrument.


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Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010605 08/05/20 08:30 PM
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C sharp and d flat not the same key on a harpsichord, please explain?

Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010636 08/05/20 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
C sharp and d flat not the same key on a harpsichord, please explain?

Quantum harpsicord. Changes temperament based on superposition principles.


Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
Re: 7 sharps
hawgdriver #3010656 08/06/20 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by hawgdriver
Originally Posted by Moo :)
C sharp and d flat not the same key on a harpsichord, please explain?

Quantum harpsicord. Changes temperament based on superposition principles.
Aren't they simultaneously the same key until the waveform collapses, even though they're actually different? Or is that what you're saying? I'm not seeing how the superposition could be macro in this case.


SRF
Re: 7 sharps
Keith D Kerman #3010660 08/06/20 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
This is a fantastic Prelude and Fugue and you should work on it. As you struggle a bit with the key it will begin to make more and more sense and get to the point where playing in C# feels as intuitive as any other key. It isn't that big a deal, really. You will probably mis read some notes and recognize they sound wrong and as you correct yourself it will get easier to play this key.

It's also an excellent way to become familiar with double sharps and weird transitory keys like E# minor (the relative minor of the dominant). But Keith is absolutely right. It's a superb set. The prelude is not too difficult but requires some agility. I learnt it when I was about 8 or 9. The fugue is much more difficult, but it's a masterpiece in the canzona tradition, with absolutely exquisite episodes that leave one, well me at any rate, full of joy, and wondering, for the nth time, how Bach got to be so darn good at his craft.

I remain convinced that Bach conceived this piece in C# not Db. I think I may have said this before, but if I were to hear this before I'd ever seen the score I would just know it was C#, even played on an equally tempered instrument. Nothing about it feels like Db.


SRF
Re: 7 sharps
SiFi #3010668 08/06/20 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
Originally Posted by hawgdriver
Originally Posted by Moo :)
C sharp and d flat not the same key on a harpsichord, please explain?

Quantum harpsicord. Changes temperament based on superposition principles.
Aren't they simultaneously the same key until the waveform collapses, even though they're actually different? Or is that what you're saying? I'm not seeing how the superposition could be macro in this case.

Perhaps a few of the just intonation notes are like charms on the Schrodinger cat collar? ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬

Some bling that either exists or it doesn't, but one never ought know?


Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010670 08/06/20 01:51 AM
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While looking into another topic, I found another piece in C# major, a movement of Vorisek's sonata.


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Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010675 08/06/20 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
I am only stuck one ornament, that one in bar 32, the others I could make out from the recording or from the ornament chart in the bach book.

That's not Bach!

Rameau has his own table of ornaments.

That particular ornament is played with A on the downbeat, then quickly Bb-A-Bb

You really shouldn't realize ornaments by listening to recordings. Use the table.


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Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010689 08/06/20 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Thank you. I didnt realise it was also D flat with 5 flats. Enhamonic. I think I will need to wait until I have lessons to manage this one.

Maybe you'll could help please please with the piece I am learning. I have another piece I am trying to learn but I dont understand why the notation is different. Is it a french thing ?
There is a semibreve b flat at bar 32 i think which is hugged by two swiggles.

For the Bach, you can just transpose to C major.

For Rameau, be carefull that the french ornaments are different from Bach. Your sign, if i am not mistaken, is called a 'pince et port de voix'. Essentialy you start on the lower note a, then do a quick trill bflat, a, b flat, a and rest on b flat.

You will find the specific table of ornaments for Rameau, in one of the edition on imslp, probably the first book of pieces. There is a text writen by Rameau that explains how to play on the harpsichord called 'de la mecanique des doigts sur le clavessin' with a table of ornaments.

Re: 7 sharps
Moo :) #3010749 08/06/20 09:30 AM
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Very helpful. Thank you smile

Re: 7 sharps
hawgdriver #3010804 08/06/20 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by hawgdriver
Originally Posted by SiFi
Originally Posted by hawgdriver
Originally Posted by Moo :)
C sharp and d flat not the same key on a harpsichord, please explain?

Quantum harpsicord. Changes temperament based on superposition principles.
Aren't they simultaneously the same key until the waveform collapses, even though they're actually different? Or is that what you're saying? I'm not seeing how the superposition could be macro in this case.

Perhaps a few of the just intonation notes are like charms on the Schrodinger cat collar? ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬

Some bling that either exists or it doesn't, but one never ought know?

By George, I think you've got it, with bling being somewhere between particle interactions and macro phenomena. My only suggestion would be to say, "bling that both exists and does not" because surely the photons reflecting off it would create an interference pattern while it's in the superposition state.

You are one funny guy!


SRF
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