2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
41 members (DSC, 36251, Animisha, Ercmnrln, clothearednincompo, Andrew_G, Anglagard44, Barly, CyberGene, 7 invisible), 366 guests, and 360 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
#3010543 08/05/20 04:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 371
P
pold Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 371
Apart from the difference between striking a vibrating string vs a non vibrating string (for repeated notes), which we already discussed, now I have another question regarding sustain pedal samples and staccato samples. To me there is a sound difference in how quickly you you lift your finger from the key, after striking it. You notice this difference obviously when you hit hard and strings is vibrating a lot. So when the hammer is far away from the string the sound will be better, more powerful.
What I mean is, when they record each note, after striking it, do they stay with the finger (or robot) pressed down on the key, or do they lift it as quickly as possible?

Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
pold #3010545 08/05/20 04:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 325
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 325
Kawai and Yamaha have Let-Off Simulation, when you slowly take off your finger you can actually hear the sounds fading out (think of half pedalling)


Finally bought the P515
Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
joemama42O #3010552 08/05/20 05:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 371
P
pold Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by joemama42O
Kawai and Yamaha have Let-Off Simulation, when you slowly take off your finger you can actually hear the sounds fading out (think of half pedalling)

I am not talking about let off, but how quickly they remove the finger, do they give importance to it?

Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
pold #3010620 08/05/20 09:22 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,784
I
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,784
I think no one ever recorded samples of staccato. When you press a key on a digital there is no way for the device to know if you want to play staccato or not. In essence there is just one sample and it's simply stopped abruptly when you release the key quickly or stopped with a little fading out when you release the key gently.

Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
pold #3010649 08/05/20 11:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 325
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 325
When I take my fingers off of my P-515 half-way, the strings keep vibrating but less aparently. It's not just a fade-out, it actually softens the sounds according to how much your finger is off.


Finally bought the P515
Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
pold #3010650 08/05/20 11:53 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 214
N
Nip Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 214
Originally Posted by pold
To me there is a sound difference in how quickly you you lift your finger from the key, after striking it. You notice this difference obviously when you hit hard and strings is vibrating a lot. So when the hammer is far away from the string the sound will be better, more powerful.
What I mean is, when they record each note, after striking it, do they stay with the finger (or robot) pressed down on the key, or do they lift it as quickly as possible?

AFAIK the hammer always hit - and leaves the string - no matter if you hold key down or not.
It's a bounce - hammer is not held by key.

So how there is a difference in sound, is all to do with force of hammer when striking IMO.

What puzzles me though is if sampled pianos are sampled as tuned to concert pitch and then made strictly equal temperament - or tuned differently when sampled. I mean with concert pitch stretch tunings and all like a concert pianist wants it.

To me the 4 Yamaha I had since the 80's really were horrible in harmonic beating, and wondered about that. Kawai has settings for every little thing almost, and you can adjust harmonic beating to be acceptable in the octaves mostly used.

As I tested on a tuner on Yamaha equal means equal temperament - but that is not how concert pitch is. But the last CLP-535 I had, did not have any stretch tuning built in - some larger models had it but only in amps out to speakers, not for headphones.


Kawai MP7SE - Hammond XK3c - Synthesizers
Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
Nip #3010669 08/06/20 01:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 379
B
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by Nip
Originally Posted by pold
To me there is a sound difference in how quickly you you lift your finger from the key, after striking it. You notice this difference obviously when you hit hard and strings is vibrating a lot. So when the hammer is far away from the string the sound will be better, more powerful.
What I mean is, when they record each note, after striking it, do they stay with the finger (or robot) pressed down on the key, or do they lift it as quickly as possible?

AFAIK the hammer always hit - and leaves the string - no matter if you hold key down or not.
It's a bounce - hammer is not held by key.

So how there is a difference in sound, is all to do with force of hammer when striking IMO.

What puzzles me though is if sampled pianos are sampled as tuned to concert pitch and then made strictly equal temperament - or tuned differently when sampled. I mean with concert pitch stretch tunings and all like a concert pianist wants it.

To me the 4 Yamaha I had since the 80's really were horrible in harmonic beating, and wondered about that. Kawai has settings for every little thing almost, and you can adjust harmonic beating to be acceptable in the octaves mostly used.

As I tested on a tuner on Yamaha equal means equal temperament - but that is not how concert pitch is. But the last CLP-535 I had, did not have any stretch tuning built in - some larger models had it but only in amps out to speakers, not for headphones.

Correct me if I’m wrong but when you press they key you also lift the damper for that string making it possible to resonate as long as you hold the key. When you release the key the damper goes down and the note gets muted. So by doing this at different speeds will effect the sound and how long the string resonated and possibly also the nature of the sound.

I have a p-515 that has key off velocity and on the CFX voice I can definitely hear a different type of sound then playing staccato on the keyboard. Maybe it’s just a placebo effect but I don’t think so.

Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
Nip #3010677 08/06/20 02:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,789
C
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,789
Originally Posted by Nip
. . .

AFAIK the hammer always hit - and leaves the string - no matter if you hold key down or not.
It's a bounce - hammer is not held by key.

So how there is a difference in sound, is all to do with force of hammer when striking IMO.

.

That's true for the _attack_ sound, and its decay when the damper is raised. (There are some pianists who disagree, but I think most people here would agree with that.)

But the _release_ sound -- when the note stop sounding, because the damper comes down onto the string:

. . . the damper is held up by the key,
. . . and if the key is released slowly,
. . . . the damper comes down slowly,
. . . . . and if you listen, and your technique is good,
. . . . . . you can make the sound fade gradually, by letting the damper _just touch_ the string,
. . . . . . . . but not quite rest its full weight on it.

And that's why some keyboards measure MIDI "release velocity", and some DP's have "release samples".

Yes, it makes a difference.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
Nip #3010693 08/06/20 05:49 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 371
P
pold Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by Nip
Originally Posted by pold
To me there is a sound difference in how quickly you you lift your finger from the key, after striking it. You notice this difference obviously when you hit hard and strings is vibrating a lot. So when the hammer is far away from the string the sound will be better, more powerful.
What I mean is, when they record each note, after striking it, do they stay with the finger (or robot) pressed down on the key, or do they lift it as quickly as possible?

AFAIK the hammer always hit - and leaves the string - no matter if you hold key down or not.
It's a bounce - hammer is not held by key.

So how there is a difference in sound, is all to do with force of hammer when striking IMO.

Do you think that the distance of hammer/damper from the string doesn't affect the sound? I always have the feeling that the sound is different when I remove the finger quickly, but maybe it's just a weird irrational sensation, and you are right. On the other hand if you play staccato notes, they won't sound good enough if you are not very quick, it's a touch and go, does the VSL robot deal with this for example?.

Last edited by pold; 08/06/20 05:49 AM.
Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
pold #3010704 08/06/20 07:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,744
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,744
Yes, Kawai DPs measure key release speed, and use this information to influence the release sound.

Please refer to this page:

http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11se/detail/touch/

Scroll down to "TRIPLE-SENSOR KEY DETECTION", then listen to the "Release Speed" audio example for both 2-sensor and 3-sensor actions.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Do they lift the finger quickly after striking the key?
pold #3010761 08/06/20 10:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,812
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,812
Assuming you hit the note with the same velocity (you can try this with a MIDI control), the difference will be in the damper response. On staccato the damper will drop quickly, muting the note, on a held key the note will continue to ring out and decay naturally. DPs simulate this effect pretty well imo.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Roland Integra 7 , kc600
by dss862 - 09/19/20 04:31 AM
Is Casio PX-S1000 a right choice for me
by lehinsun - 09/19/20 12:02 AM
2 week layoff...
by AmyKaye - 09/18/20 08:53 PM
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics201,702
Posts3,004,442
Members98,592
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4