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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3007709 07/28/20 10:50 AM
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I would make contact with Yamaha in Japan and tell them of your wishes. Head office would most likely not be pleased with how Yamaha Indonesia is conducting itself, and they have the power to make things happen to your satisfaction. As you have said, others have successfully tried Yamaha pianos in Japan and had them shipped via a local dealer in the buyers location. I wouldn't be shopping for a Kawai if your heart is set on a Yamaha. They are very different beasts and most people have a preference for one over the other. I don't see them as interchangeable at all. Yamaha is known for pulling rogue dealers into line by reminding them of their obligations and the possible consequences to their licence to sell Yamaha pianos in the event of a breach.

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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3007947 07/29/20 01:23 AM
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I have tried some kawai,
but I find them more varied in tone and touch.
there was an rx7 that I like very much,
however, I grew up playing yamaha, so I am more accustomed to their action.
I always find kawai action stiffer, sometimes it is a little bit, but one time I find an sk5 which is very very heavy to play.
so for kawai, I definitely have to try the piano first.

kawai indonesia is far more friendly though, so definitely I will also visit their factory when I go to Japan.


btw cmiiaw I think shigeru SK series is the same level as SX series, not CF.
CF here is far more expensive.


@ando
that is a good idea.
however , when I try to access yamaha japan website, it seems I get directed back to yamaha indonesia.
do you know the email address?

Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3007954 07/29/20 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by tirta
@ando
that is a good idea.
however , when I try to access yamaha japan website, it seems I get directed back to yamaha indonesia.
do you know the email address?
Maybe you could PM Rich Galassini here on the forum. His company is an authorised Yamaha dealer so he would have the contact details. Just explain your situation and that you're not looking to circumvent your local dealer, you just want the ability to try, and select your piano prior to purchasing locally. He would probably be willing to provide you the contact details of somebody who can help you.

Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3008050 07/29/20 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tirta
btw cmiiaw I think shigeru SK series is the same level as SX series, not CF.
CF here is far more expensive.

Sorry, I understand you are a Yamaha fan but perhaps you are mistaking price for in-built quality. Yamaha can practice whatever prices they want for their products, but an SX series is NOT in the same league as a SK, despite Kawai may cost alike. If Larry Fine's Piano Buyers Guide is not the Holy Scripture, at least is the most renowned and well-reputed reference in this matter, and PBG is probably right about it. By its scale, SX pianos are a step below that one where both CF and SK pianos belong:

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/a-map-of-the-market-for-new-pianos-ratings/

Of course, what matters most is your preference and for that piano tiers mean very little. smile


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
Fluxo #3008254 07/29/20 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Fluxo
Originally Posted by tirta
btw cmiiaw I think shigeru SK series is the same level as SX series, not CF.
CF here is far more expensive.

Sorry, I understand you are a Yamaha fan but perhaps you are mistaking price for in-built quality. Yamaha can practice whatever prices they want for their products, but an SX series is NOT in the same league as a SK, despite Kawai may cost alike. If Larry Fine's Piano Buyers Guide is not the Holy Scripture, at least is the most renowned and well-reputed reference in this matter, and PBG is probably right about it. By its scale, SX pianos are a step below that one where both CF and SK pianos belong:
I've played a SK and SX in the same showroom - they are very much similar product levels. The fact that you are saying this so strongly tells me that you have never played an SX. They are very fine pianos - like the SK. You would not notice any difference in quality, it's simply a matter of preference. I like both of them.

Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
ando #3008373 07/30/20 08:23 AM
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Well, by this reasoning, there would be no point in the CF line being more expensive than the SX, unless you mean that CF it is indeed superior to SK line. Now that is something I would dispute, for I have played both lines, equally well prepped. For coincidence, a CF4 and an SK3, almost the same size, not in the same dealer, of course.

So, if the SX line is the same quality of SK, as you say, than it is the same quality of a CF, and thus, whoever intending to buy a high-end Yamaha, would be very well served with an SX, isn't it? No need to pay extra bucks for a CF, don't you think?


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
Fluxo #3008399 07/30/20 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Fluxo
Well, by this reasoning, there would be no point in the CF line being more expensive than the SX, unless you mean that CF it is indeed superior to SK line. Now that is something I would dispute, for I have played both lines, equally well prepped. For coincidence, a CF4 and an SK3, almost the same size, not in the same dealer, of course.

So, if the SX line is the same quality of SK, as you say, than it is the same quality of a CF, and thus, whoever intending to buy a high-end Yamaha, would be very well served with an SX, isn't it? No need to pay extra bucks for a CF, don't you think?
The CF line is a cut above SK, in my opinion. So yes, there is every reason to make the CF line - that is the ultimate piano from Yamaha, no expense spared. The SX line sits a little below that. Just because the SK is the highest product that Kawai makes, doesn't mean that it is as fine as many other top line concert grands. I love the Shigeru pianos, and I'd happily own one, but they don't represent the best money can buy, in my opinion.

Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3008401 07/30/20 10:14 AM
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Is it possible that Yamaha set the price point of the CF too high just because they can?


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3008454 07/30/20 12:48 PM
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A current, high-level examination of Kawai's SK-series and Yamaha's current Sx-series suggests significant parallels. Put bluntly, the SK6 is a "hot rod" GX6 in the same way that the S6x is a "hot rod" C6x. They share the same scale design, frame, rim, primary methods of construction, case parts, etc. They offer a different production line with more select woods, different hammers, perhaps different strings, upgraded factory prep and voicing protocols, upgraded aesthetics.

For that reason, I think it's more fair to compare these lines, especially when you factor in the more similar pricing, too.

The CF4 and CF6 are made differently than other Yamaha models. Very different rims, different plate castings, more differences in materials and production. Their origins are the S4 and S6, but neither were rooted in C-series models. They are wonderfully, inefficiently, made like other premium small makers which is why the cost is so very much higher - at least in part. Those pianos should be judged on their own merits, but it is not the same parallel as between the SK and Sx.

Finally, the SK-EX and CFX are handmade concert grands. For this reason, I would say the SK-EX is different than the smaller SK's and more like the smaller CF's in their approach. In the broad sense, they are made the way all makers produce great concert grands - wonderfully inefficient.


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
Learux #3008455 07/30/20 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Learux
Is it possible that Yamaha set the price point of the CF too high just because they can?

This is just my opinion, but I think the price is high because they’re bought by professional musicians or for some performance venues. The dealer is able to give steeper discounts on the CF line. I almost bought a CF4 last year at a very good price. I’m not a professional nor am I buying for the University’s Popejoy Hall.

I don’t know where the SX line sits in comparison to a Shigeru because I’ve never seen one.

I only try pianos it seems when I’m shopping and I don’t think I’ll be shopping anymore.


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
PianoWorksATL #3008459 07/30/20 01:33 PM
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Regardless of their similarities or differences to other lines in the same brand (would that actually mean "more in-built quality"?), put side by side, [i]CF and SK of the same size produced the same level of sound quality, to my taste[/i]. Obviously, with distinct tones/voices. In this discussion, it is really a shame I could not yet experience the SX line, so, my reference is the smaller CF. By the way, I read somewhere (perhaps in Kawai's international brochure?) that SKs 6 (close in size to CF6) and SK7s are built to the same construction specs as SK-EX. Would that mean that they are more "boutique" pianos than the SKs from 2 to 5? It is a possibility.

One thing for sure: if I was piano shopping, and faced to only one of these two options, getting the same level of sound quality and a similar good tone/touch ratio, would be everything I needed to assess the comercial aspect of the deal: the price. I surely would never pay extra bucks for a CF over a SK, provided I liked both the same way. But I would do so, at the current stage of my knowledge, for a Sauter, a Bechstein or a Bösendorfer.

Just my 0,02 cents smile


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
PianoWorksATL #3008463 07/30/20 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
A current, high-level examination of Kawai's SK-series and Yamaha's current Sx-series suggests significant parallels. Put bluntly, the SK6 is a "hot rod" GX6 in the same way that the S6x is a "hot rod" C6x. They share the same scale design, frame, rim, primary methods of construction, case parts, etc. They offer a different production line with more select woods, different hammers, perhaps different strings, upgraded factory prep and voicing protocols, upgraded aesthetics.

For that reason, I think it's more fair to compare these lines, especially when you factor in the more similar pricing, too.

The CF4 and CF6 are made differently than other Yamaha models. Very different rims, different plate castings, more differences in materials and production. Their origins are the S4 and S6, but neither were rooted in C-series models. They are wonderfully, inefficiently, made like other premium small makers which is why the cost is so very much higher - at least in part. Those pianos should be judged on their own merits, but it is not the same parallel as between the SK and Sx.

Finally, the SK-EX and CFX are handmade concert grands. For this reason, I would say the SK-EX is different than the smaller SK's and more like the smaller CF's in their approach. In the broad sense, they are made the way all makers produce great concert grands - wonderfully inefficient.

I guess here is our answer, TX Sam, Always appreciate your input.


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
PianoWorksATL #3008477 07/30/20 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
A current, high-level examination of Kawai's SK-series and Yamaha's current Sx-series suggests significant parallels. Put bluntly, the SK6 is a "hot rod" GX6 in the same way that the S6x is a "hot rod" C6x. They share the same scale design, frame, rim, primary methods of construction, case parts, etc. They offer a different production line with more select woods, different hammers, perhaps different strings, upgraded factory prep and voicing protocols, upgraded aesthetics.

For that reason, I think it's more fair to compare these lines, especially when you factor in the more similar pricing, too.

The CF4 and CF6 are made differently than other Yamaha models. Very different rims, different plate castings, more differences in materials and production. Their origins are the S4 and S6, but neither were rooted in C-series models. They are wonderfully, inefficiently, made like other premium small makers which is why the cost is so very much higher - at least in part. Those pianos should be judged on their own merits, but it is not the same parallel as between the SK and Sx.

Finally, the SK-EX and CFX are handmade concert grands. For this reason, I would say the SK-EX is different than the smaller SK's and more like the smaller CF's in their approach. In the broad sense, they are made the way all makers produce great concert grands - wonderfully inefficient.

(cue confusing acronym salad)

If I'm not mistaken, the differences between GX and SK also include different agraffes, beam materials, hand wound bass strings, and different bridge cap materials...in addition to the included MPA visit in the North American market, which is a full day's tech work beyond the scope of what many (not all) techs know how to do...at last at that level of efficiency and familiarity with a particular piano line.

The information I've read/heard seems to suggest the SX is a little closer to the CX in terms of the assembly process, while the SK piano may be built with more of the vaunted "inefficiency" Sam speaks of. The finished product performance is, of course, the most important determinant of success.

The US market pricing appears to place the SX pianos at a slightly higher price than the SK models. I've not had the chance to do the "Pepsi Challenge" and play the CX and SX pianos, or SX and SK pianos side-by-side. It will be interesting to see how the premium piano series do with Yamaha dealers (at least in our market), because they've been historically a bit reluctant to stock the higher-line models.


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3008992 08/01/20 04:38 AM
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I often hear that people say compared to Yamaha, Kawai piano sounds better when recorded.
yamaha sound tends to be thin and hollow.

Is there some truth to that statement?

or depends on the piano and the recording equpment too?

or is it because in general, kawai is darker and mellower?

Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3009038 08/01/20 07:55 AM
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Honestly that depends on the individual piano, the recording equipment, the placement of the mics, the skill of the recording engineer, the post production techniques used.

It certainly used to be that Kawai went for a darker, more mellow sound on their pianos compared with Yamaha who went for a very precise and slightly brighter tone, but I've heard some very bright Kawai pianos, and some very mellow Yamahas. It really depends on what the technician who prepares the piano is going for. The newest Yamahas are in general more mellow and rounder sounding than previous generations.

It's actually my opinion that virtually all new pianos are being shipped far too bright. I like a mellow sound, to the point where most players find my taste dulled or subdued, but it works well with my technique. I don't play with a lot of 'finger technique' but I use a fairly prominent knuckle and I use a lot of arm weight and rotation. What I'm finding now though, is that with the way pianos have, and are changing over the years, that kind of technique produces a bit too much tone. I still find Bösendorfer and Blüthner pianos voiced in the pre-WW2 manner suits my technique best, or the Clifford Curzon type of Steinway sound, that pre-1965 Hamburg sound, for example.

Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3009137 08/01/20 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tirta
I often hear that people say compared to Yamaha, Kawai piano sounds better when recorded.
yamaha sound tends to be thin and hollow.

Is there some truth to that statement?

or depends on the piano and the recording equpment too?

or is it because in general, kawai is darker and mellower?

If a nice sounding Yamaha sounds thin and hollow when recorded, it wasn't recorded properly. Recording equipment, unless it's unsuitable for recording the piano (any piano), won't make a good piano sound bad.

Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3009138 08/01/20 12:59 PM
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I enjoy listening to different, good recordings, but I also know that in a recording studio, often the engineer's job is to create or alter the the source, not produce a stripped down or raw recording. I would say that much has to do with the individual piano, equipment, and techniques used.


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3009175 08/01/20 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tirta
I often hear that people say compared to Yamaha, Kawai piano sounds better when recorded.
yamaha sound tends to be thin and hollow.

Is there some truth to that statement?

or depends on the piano and the recording equpment too?

or is it because in general, kawai is darker and mellower?

It is interesting to note that the Yamaha C7 (now the C7x) has become the most common choice for recording engineers to the point that it has become a brand unto itself. Because so many studios own them, it might be the world's most recorded piano.


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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3009298 08/01/20 09:56 PM
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It's funny how the new Yamaha SX is suddenly compared to the SK line from Shigeru- and all it took was couple of abbreviations. Maybe Kawai should be just as creative and launch the Bosie Shigeru SFX and tack on few thousand dollars on the price tag smile

All kidding aside, when they launched the SX line I was wondering where they would fit that in their line-up from a marketing standpoint. It was partly handmade so they want to call it premium to justify the higher price tag but they couldn't have 2 premium pianos at the top of their line-up so they called their most expensive CFX their "flagship" premium and the SX their more "intimate" premium. But the true difference between the CF and SX line of pianos is not only the higher level of craftsmanship found in the CF (and Shigeru Kawai's) but in the actual tonal differences between these pianos. The primary difference is in the Acoustic Resonance Enhancement process the SX rims go through and the specially designed hammers they use in that line-up. The effect, to my understanding, was produce a piano with the "intimate" mellow tonal characteristics of vintage pianos. Kind of like taking a young quality wine and putting it in a microwave to "age" it to perfection and saying it's as good if not better than a high end rebuild of a decades old piano. If that flips your switch. Go for it!

But make no mistake about it, the Shigeru Kawai and the Yamaha CFX are positioned in the market as flagship models from the top two piano manufacturers in Asia. Both are played onstage in international piano competitions while the SX is not. Piano buyer places them in the same "distinguished" category where the SX is not. Yamaha itself claims that the CFX is its flagship while the SX is not. Both receive the highest level of craftsmanship in the factory where the SX is not. In fact, Shigeru takes that craftsmanship to a whole new level sending a master craftsman right to the Shigeru's final home. Also, to make the argument that a Shigeru Kawai is somewhat of a lesser piano because it shares some parts and design elements from the RX/GX series of pianos is kind of well disingenuous if not dumb. The RX series won several international awards for its design in fact winning the prestigious MMR acoustic line of the year from 2003-2005. The scale design is a celebrated design. It's like blasting Porsche for keeping the 911 shape all these years. It's iconic. Why mess with perfection? Just improve upon it. Is a 911 any less of a flagship? It was Volkswagen design for god-sakes?

And finally, can you tell that I own a Shigeru? smile. Don't mess with Jethro's Shigeru! wink


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Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
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Re: yamaha s6x vs s7x, s5x, c7x?
tirta #3009481 Yesterday at 12:16 PM
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If you want to hear the truth about Shigeru Kawai and the "fanatical" approach they take to build these pianos to ensure you have a world class instrument watch this video by Stu Harrison. I've always enjoyed this guys videos because even though he sells these pianos his approach to informing us of these products are always well researched, honest, and never puts down his competitor's offerings. They are always professionally done. I think he represents Kawai very well. You want to talk about inefficiencies in manufacturing. Having a guy standing over a steam jet as he bends and shapes each individual layer of a rim sounds pretty inefficient and fanatical to me. This is actually quite an interesting video.




Last edited by Jethro; Yesterday at 12:21 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
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