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Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
Osiris #3008432 07/30/20 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Osiris
@ maurus,

As a soon to be VPC1 owner and reading your experience with the VPC1 and SK-2, what is the difference in key-action? Does the VPC1 have a heavier key-action than the SK-2?

Well. They are not too different in weight, and personally I have no problem in playing toward the back of the keys (at my level of playing which I'd say is somewhere between intermediate and experienced, whatever that might mean). I've seen quite a few different actions in DP's, from entry level to Yamaha's and Kawai's better ones, and I find the VPC1 action absolutely OK in pianistic terms. I do make use quite a bit of the VPC1's touch curve feature to adapt the action to a specific sound I'm playing; different touch curves make a big difference to me, and the wrong one can ruin the connection. That's one limitation of DPs the VPC1 does *not* have.

That said, there are still worlds between it and a real grand piano action, coupled to real strings in a real piano. It's just a different world of expression that you can enter with the real thing. Whether that's down to the action or to the sound generator doesn't matter too much IMHO.


Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.
Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
Jethro #3008434 07/30/20 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Hi Maurus,

I remember you. Your advice was pivotal in me deciding to go forward with that VPC-1 purchase over a year ago. In a way, I have you to partially thank for my luck in finding that Shigeru. So thanks for that bud!
Thanks Jethro, and yes, I remember our encounter, too. Enjoy both (and all) of your pianos!
Cheers!


Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.
Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
maurus #3008444 07/30/20 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by maurus
Originally Posted by Jethro
I will always bless the day I picked up my Kawai VPC-1 from a Kawai dealer in Sarasota. I had purchased an "open box" VPC-1 from Musician's Friend but it arrived extremely poorly packaged and was damaged with 1 octave of keys smashed in and a corner of the piano chipped. They offered me a full refund. I decided it would be safer to buy one from a local dealer and I found one in Sarasota FL about 1 hour from my home. On the day I went to pick it up the dealer insisted that I sit down and try a Shigeru SK-2 in the showroom. I declined at first because I was there to only to pick up my VPC-1 and I did not want to even try the SK-2 because I figured I was already happy with the RX-2 I owned and no reason to spoil that feeling. Well he insisted and of course I tried it and fell in love with it right away and asked him with trepidation what would it cost me. It turned out he was offering an incredible deal on that SK2 as it was the last he had in stock as he was closing his business to assist his father in the North East who also owns a Kawai dealership. Let's just say I probably wouldn't have been able to buy a GX-2 at the price he was offering so I put down a $500 deposit and said I will get my finances in order and send him the rest in a couple of days. The SK2 now sits in my living room and I was able to sell the RX-2 in a few months on Pianomart. Best piano purchase I ever made. The VPC-1 is not too bad either.
Very nice story, Jethro. As a fellow SK-2 owner I can relate to it wink

I also find the transition between the SK-2 and the VPC-1 quite smooth and entirely workable. Of course on the real thing you can do a lot more in terms of nuance, control and emotion, but for night practice or the occasional detour into electric music the VPC-1 is just great.

Personally I hate the hassle with a computer. My solution was (and is) to simply put a Nord Electro on top of the VPC-1 - with the added bonus of a second key action (waterfall) for organ playing, and easy transportability smile
I recently brought my VPC1 to my home as I no longer needed a work apartment that I used when expanding my company. I was worried that the VPC1 would be barely touched now that they were both at home. Turns out I use it quite often. It is the perfect companion to a grand acoustic for silent practice. There is clearly a difference in feel but the key weight is close enough that it doesn't throw of one's technique. I actually DO practice more now that I have a silent instrument at my disposal at home. A great learning tool to work on those difficult passages and not bother the wife or neighbors.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/30/20 12:17 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
maurus #3008446 07/30/20 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by maurus
Originally Posted by Osiris
@ maurus,

As a soon to be VPC1 owner and reading your experience with the VPC1 and SK-2, what is the difference in key-action? Does the VPC1 have a heavier key-action than the SK-2?

Well. They are not too different in weight, and personally I have no problem in playing toward the back of the keys (at my level of playing which I'd say is somewhere between intermediate and experienced, whatever that might mean). I've seen quite a few different actions in DP's, from entry level to Yamaha's and Kawai's better ones, and I find the VPC1 action absolutely OK in pianistic terms. I do make use quite a bit of the VPC1's touch curve feature to adapt the action to a specific sound I'm playing; different touch curves make a big difference to me, and the wrong one can ruin the connection. That's one limitation of DPs the VPC1 does *not* have.

That said, there are still worlds between it and a real grand piano action, coupled to real strings in a real piano. It's just a different world of expression that you can enter with the real thing. Whether that's down to the action or to the sound generator doesn't matter too much IMHO.
Exactly! I also perceive no issues playing towards the back of the keys either at speed. I think that was just a marketing ploy to garner interest in the newer products. A keyboardist who is used to synthesizer keyboards though may find it difficult to transition to the VPC-1 and I think that is why the MP11SE may have been created as it feels like the perfect transition between the two. The VPC-1 feels a lot closer to an acoustic grand than the MP11SE in my opinion which felt closer to one of my old synthesizers- at least the one I tried.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/30/20 12:24 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
maurus #3008510 07/30/20 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by maurus
Originally Posted by Osiris
@ maurus,

As a soon to be VPC1 owner and reading your experience with the VPC1 and SK-2, what is the difference in key-action? Does the VPC1 have a heavier key-action than the SK-2?

Well. They are not too different in weight, and personally I have no problem in playing toward the back of the keys (at my level of playing which I'd say is somewhere between intermediate and experienced, whatever that might mean). I've seen quite a few different actions in DP's, from entry level to Yamaha's and Kawai's better ones, and I find the VPC1 action absolutely OK in pianistic terms. I do make use quite a bit of the VPC1's touch curve feature to adapt the action to a specific sound I'm playing; different touch curves make a big difference to me, and the wrong one can ruin the connection. That's one limitation of DPs the VPC1 does *not* have.

That said, there are still worlds between it and a real grand piano action, coupled to real strings in a real piano. It's just a different world of expression that you can enter with the real thing. Whether that's down to the action or to the sound generator doesn't matter too much IMHO.

Your last statement also explains that there still is a gap in translating the expression on a digital controller such as the VPC1 which is limited for instance with its triple sensing technology. Optical sensing would be the next step and is already used in several digital pianos. However continuous sensing the position of a key thousands of times per second leads to very high precision. The Kaduk Midi Controller Respons is able to produce 128 * 128 = 16384 velocity values. A VPC2 would, in this regards, be a major step towards a real piano, certainly expression wise.

For those interested in the Kaduk Midi Controller Response, take a look at: https://kaduk.nl

In another thread it has also been mentioned.

Last edited by Osiris; 07/30/20 04:04 PM.

Kawai VPC1
Windows 10 / MacOS Majove 10.14
Monitors: KRK Rokit-5 Powered
Software: Pianoteq 6 Pro Studio, several other VSTs
Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
Jethro #3008558 07/30/20 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by maurus
Originally Posted by Osiris
@ maurus,

As a soon to be VPC1 owner and reading your experience with the VPC1 and SK-2, what is the difference in key-action? Does the VPC1 have a heavier key-action than the SK-2?

Well. They are not too different in weight, and personally I have no problem in playing toward the back of the keys (at my level of playing which I'd say is somewhere between intermediate and experienced, whatever that might mean). I've seen quite a few different actions in DP's, from entry level to Yamaha's and Kawai's better ones, and I find the VPC1 action absolutely OK in pianistic terms. I do make use quite a bit of the VPC1's touch curve feature to adapt the action to a specific sound I'm playing; different touch curves make a big difference to me, and the wrong one can ruin the connection. That's one limitation of DPs the VPC1 does *not* have.

That said, there are still worlds between it and a real grand piano action, coupled to real strings in a real piano. It's just a different world of expression that you can enter with the real thing. Whether that's down to the action or to the sound generator doesn't matter too much IMHO.
Exactly! I also perceive no issues playing towards the back of the keys either at speed. I think that was just a marketing ploy to garner interest in the newer products. A keyboardist who is used to synthesizer keyboards though may find it difficult to transition to the VPC-1 and I think that is why the MP11SE may have been created as it feels like the perfect transition between the two. The VPC-1 feels a lot closer to an acoustic grand than the MP11SE in my opinion which felt closer to one of my old synthesizers- at least the one I tried.


Not to start another one of these convos (oops), but I'll just briefly add this as well. I recently asked Shaun Choo, a brilliant pianist about this (image, video 1, video 2), and he said he hadn't even noticed it. He also has a grand piano right next to his VPC1 to compare it to. Additionally, the fact that Ravenscroft felt it more than sufficient to use it as a basis for a modification to compare to their actual grand, with stellar impressions (video).

I've also seen posts claiming that an action like the PHA-50 is quite superior in this aspect, when in reality it's only 8% longer overall (12% white key, 4% black key, image). Anyway, I'll be able to judge for myself soon enough, but from my current perspective this seems to be one of the most overblown subjects ever, and it seems silly to overlook the VPC1 because of it. Okay, I'm finished.

Last edited by maul; 07/30/20 06:09 PM.
Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
Jethro #3008575 07/30/20 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Exactly! I also perceive no issues playing towards the back of the keys either at speed. I think that was just a marketing ploy to garner interest in the newer products.

I stopped playing my Kawai MP-10 because of this as I found some repertoire unnecessarily uncomfortable. The keys are the same as the VPC-1 but the sensors are different.

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
Jethro #3008587 07/30/20 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
from the optical output (Toslink) of the mac mini into a Shitt digital pre-amp

Imagine how good it would sound with a GOOD pre- nah I'm not going to be tempted to complete that puerile joke. It would detract from the gravitas of the thread. Plus it wouldn't be the first time someone has been tempted to pun that particular brand, and it certainly won't be the last.

I've had my VPC1 for about a bit over two years now, and it's just a solid working instrument, after all they are "stage" pianos which gives you a certain amount of quality straight out of the box, otherwise people wouldn't use them on stage.

Have zero complaints.

Pianoteq, nothing fussed around with, just Steinway, with the VPC1 set to the correct velocity curve, a little bit of reverb turned of and so on, I wanted a fairly bare sound for practice.

A lot of people don't like the pedals, but I find them fine. I used to think they weren't similar to real piano pedals, but actually I went for my first lesson a while ago, and my teacher had a Steinway with very similar feeling pedals, short travel, etc. - I have to say actually that the Steinway felt spooky similar to the VPC1, or rather the other way around. So top marks for the VPC1.

I've got a Roland Z stand which is excellent, although there is about 2mm of wobble if you're thrashing it a bit, but it is on a short carpet so it could be that.

Actually, only request for the VPC1 would be for a hard keyboard lid that you could just hook on or something and then whip it off, like the hard top of old convertible cars.

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
Zaphod #3008589 07/30/20 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaphod
Actually, only request for the VPC1 would be for a hard keyboard lid that you could just hook on or something and then whip it off, like the hard top of old convertible cars.

I like that idea very much. Maybe the creative minds in this thread could come up with ideas to construct something like that ourselves?

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
EB5AGV #3008595 07/30/20 08:29 PM
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Hi everyone. New member. Got my VPC1 last week. Sold my CA67 to pay for it and a K&M 18590 table stand. I’m in love. I was using my CA67 as a controller about 90% of the time. So although it had the GF2 action, which is said to be superior, I was more than happy with the transition to GM3 action.
I’m using Garritan CFX, Synthogy Studio Grands, Pianoteq, Addictive Keys and Spitfire Felt Piano. I record at home just because I love it.
Andy

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
EB5AGV #3008597 07/30/20 08:32 PM
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I actually think on reflection some kind of magnetic arrangement could be better with a couple of tabs that fold out and in on the lid. Similar to a magnetic phone case.

Then, a couple of magnets could be put in to the VPC on the side, or the ends of the keyboard on the top. This way, no alteration to the aesthetics of the VPC1 would be necessary.

However, this strikes me as something that only a manufacturer, or someone who wants to actually drill in to their VPC1 would do.

I think a lid could probably simply be made that one "put" on top. If it was made the right size, it would stay put. The point being that any hooks or tabs etc should be on the lid, not the VPC1.

You could perhaps fashion one out of tough clear perspex so that one could see the keyboard through it.

I guess there's the "Travel" lid which one needs to be securely locked to the keyboard, and there's the "Dust cover" type lid that one simply puts on top at home to basically protect it against mishaps.

I guess there's always the option of a hard case similar to what synthesiser players use. Not cheap though.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. I fully expect at least one of you to have a prototype you can send me according to my above specifications within the next few days.

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
HadesPiano #3008603 07/30/20 08:47 PM
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Hi. I would highly recommend the K&M 18950. The depth is almost the same as the VPC1 so no overhang. The length leaves about 150mm either end. Rock solid, built like a tank. I set mine to 635mm so with the VPC1 on top(with rubber feet)it’s a perfect height for a piano. Mine sits at 730mm.
Hope this helps.
Andy

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
EB5AGV #3008650 07/31/20 02:50 AM
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The K&M 18950 is a great match for the VPC1.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
U3piano #3008852 07/31/20 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by U3piano
Recently I bought one of these to put my vpc-1 in:

[Linked Image]

Well, actually it's a copy of one of these, that someone made, apparently. Bought that used as well. It's legs are broken, once I fixed them ill upload pics. The place where the vpc goes is just 2cm wider than the vpc, a near perfect fit!


This is breathtaking... I would really like to see the pictures when the VPC is in place. This would be an instant buy for me if it looks seamlessy together


Kawai VPC1
Steinberg UR22mkII
Synthogy Ivory II

Custom made cabinet for Kawai VPC1
Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
MickL #3008889 07/31/20 08:04 PM
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Check the price first.
Originally Posted by MickL
This is breathtaking ...

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
MacMacMac #3008916 07/31/20 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Check the price first.
Originally Posted by MickL
This is breathtaking ...

Yes, the price is especially breathtaking, and not in a good way.

I payed €200 for my used copy which looks pretty much exactly the same, it was a coincidence that I stumbled on it, I would otherwise not even think about paying a price like that for an empty piano shell.

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
Kawai James #3008925 07/31/20 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
The K&M 18950 is a great match for the VPC1.

I would agree, by the looks of it, this seems like a jolly robust stand for our friend the VPC1.

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
EB5AGV #3009042 08/01/20 08:04 AM
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I'm using the K&M 18810 - works great as well.

Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
maurus #3009056 08/01/20 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by maurus
I'm using the K&M 18810 - works great as well.

Even if not for my VPC1 (I already had a big desk for it), I am a huge fan of the K&M 18810. I have three of them, two triple tier and one double tier. I also like the accessories you can add, as supports for monitor, mic, computer, speakers and such. Also, adjusting the height is a breeze


Yamaha U3H
Kawai VPC1
plus some other DPs, keyboards and VSTs
Re: Kawai VPC1 owners club
EB5AGV #3009785 08/03/20 10:11 AM
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Yesterday I pull the trigger and bought both VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 and Modern U. I can't wait to check them with the VPC1 grin yippie


Yamaha U3H
Kawai VPC1
plus some other DPs, keyboards and VSTs
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