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Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3008154 07/29/20 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
Your hope is realized. These are also nonsense syllables. That is the name given to syllables that do not have word-meanings, and are not part of a word.
Can't agree with that!You are looking for verbal meaning in these syllables; but in reality, this is a simplified imitation of percussion and their articulations. Beat-box is engaged in more accurate imitation; but this is already a profession.

I have given you terminology information. I am not "looking for anything" - I am telling terminology usage in the English language. If you need "credentials" to accept this, I've been working as a linguist for several decades in a practical orientation, and terminology is a key component of my day to day work. The term "nonsense syllable" is a music-specific term. It does not mean "nonsense" as used in casual conversation. It refers precisely to the kind of thing you are talking about. Tim was not being insulting (you understood the street meaning of "nonsense".)

I suggest you google "nonsense syllable + music". Did you have a chance to do that? smile This would clarify a lot.

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Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3008312 07/30/20 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I suggest you google "nonsense syllable + music". Did you have a chance to do that? smile This would clarify a lot.

Yes, I looked. It turns out that the person has no idea what he is writing about:

The term nonsense syllable is widely used to describe non-lexical vocables used in music, most notably in scat singing but also in many other forms of vocal music.

And here it is written competently:

Scat singing is a type of voice instrumental music. A scat is vocalized using
]wordless vocables and syllables (e.g. "bippity-bippity-doo-wop-razzamatazz-skoobie-doobie-shoobity-bee-bop-a-lula-shabazz") as employed by jazz singers. Scat singing gives singers the ability to sing improvised melodies and rhythms, to create the equivalent of an instrumental solo using their voice. Scatman John (John Paul Larkin) renewed interest in the genre briefly during the mid-1990s.

Vocal improviser Bobby McFerrin’s performances at major concert halls worldwide show that “wordless singing has traveled far from the concepts demonstrated by Louis Armstrong, Gladys Bentley, Cab Calloway, Anita O’Day, and Leo Watson”.[4]

Another method of scat singing is practiced by guitarists who scat along with their guitar solos note for note. Notable practitioners include George Benson, Sheldon Reynolds, and Rik Emmett.



Should not blindly believe Wikipedia ...

Last edited by Nahum; 07/30/20 02:00 AM.
Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3008396 07/30/20 09:54 AM
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So you are saying that English speaking musicians in English speaking countries do not use the term "nonsense syllable" tp refer to syllables that are not words being used in music? What word are you saying that is used in the English language to describe all the various non-word use of syllables that exist in music, other than "nonsense syllable"?

Your second entry, which you say is "written competently" talks about ONE use of syllables, namely scat. It does not say anything about what the name is for all syllables that are not used in music. It's not about the same thing.

It's like dismissing information on the word "animal ", and then saying that an article on the word "horse" is "written competently" as it gives details about horses. They are totally different things.

I don't know if you got that Tim was not being dismissive or insulting, but merely using a term in English. This was about usage: the meaning of "nonsense syllable". What generic term do you believe is used to cover syllables in scat, in songs with "doobee doobee" and similar, and in the "taka taka" system that you introduced here. What one single word describes these various ways of using syllables that don't form words?

I don't think you got what I was trying to say (or Tim) and we're therefore missing each other. smile

Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
keystring #3008400 07/30/20 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I don't know if you got that Tim was not being dismissive or insulting, but merely using a term in English.
I understood this perfectly from the first moment, I did not even consider mentioning it. However, you stubbornly return the discussion to this moment.

Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3008413 07/30/20 10:47 AM
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My use of "nonsense" was technical jargon from my background (I had a masters in clinical psychology before becoming an engineer.) It is also commonly used in the field of memory, and as mine fades I've read all the books and programs available. They're not helping.

It is always risky to use technical terms with a broader audience and risk confusion with common usage. In hindsight I might have chosen a different word. I would contend that my use was and is correct, in the context of the psychology profession, but obviously did not convey what I intended.

It is however on topic. This student had steadier rhythm with the words of nursery rhymes than with syllables-that-were-not-recognizable-words.

I've had brief exposure to other syllables, but the old 1-e-and-uh is pretty ingrained, hard for me to change. But a lot of teachers do use words - wa-ter-mel-on for those sixteenths, Cheese-bur-ger for triplets, etc. The advantage may be that a word we've heard and used a thousand times is embedded more thoroughly that a made up syllable used only when told to. Or, that words we learned in early childhood stay with us.

Nahum,
you bring us interesting perspectives!


gotta go practice
Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
TimR #3008430 07/30/20 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TimR
I've had brief exposure to other syllables, but the old 1-e-and-uh is pretty ingrained, hard for me to change. But a lot of teachers do use words - wa-ter-mel-on for those sixteenths, Cheese-bur-ger for triplets, etc. The advantage may be that a word we've heard and used a thousand times is embedded more thoroughly that a made up syllable used only when told to. Or, that words we learned in early childhood stay with us.
There is no problem with this, if you understand the fundamental difference between the language of counting, which sets the pulse of a evaluations inside a bar; and rhythmic evaluations inside a structures.

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Nahum,
you bring us interesting perspectives!
Thanks ! Each of us should try to do this, and then life seems a little more interesting, even during the crown.

Last edited by Nahum; 07/30/20 11:46 AM.
Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3008436 07/30/20 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by keystring
I don't know if you got that Tim was not being dismissive or insulting, but merely using a term in English.
I understood this perfectly from the first moment, I did not even consider mentioning it. However, you stubbornly return the discussion to this moment.
You have never acknowledged it. Not when Tim explained it, and not when I explained it. How can we know you understood it? Initially you were insulted because the word "nonsense" has a street meaning which is different. I didn't "stubbornly" anything - I responded to what you wrote, which was beside the point, and also suggested that my information was wrong, which it wasn't. You were talking about something else. If you understood, then there's nothing to explain - the problem appears to have been solved.

Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
keystring #3008672 07/31/20 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Initially you were insulted because the word "nonsense" has a street meaning which is different.
1. This is a kind of dismissive expression - template that does not refer to me personally, but to the object described in the post.
2. I have met the "nonsense" assessment more than once, and not on the street, but here on the forums - in a very clear unambiguous meaning.Why not correlate "nonsense pitches " with ghost notes?however, if you say this in front of some saxophonist, there is a chance that you will have to run away quickly! laugh

Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3008738 07/31/20 11:59 AM
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Another question-

If I am directing a large group (band, orchestra, choir) and I want them to play and hold on beat three of measure 64, (to check notes, dynamics contrast between interments, whatever) how do I say that if they do not know how to count beats?

"Trombones- the 2nd ta, vocalists - titi, flutes you are resting, violins- you will start on tiki...etc" if they do not know the count, but only syllables, how do you get an ensemble to play and hold beat three of measure 64?

Surely at that point, they have switched to standard counting?


Another question- in the video, he says that eighth notes are more advanced, so that is for later grades. (when he wants to viewer to clap along) (still elem, though) however, almost every Kodaly I have seen has them on 8ths from the get-go! So, what is the thought on that?

Most young kids have not had fractions yet in math.

I start with "beats in the feet" and have them march. Then I have them clap side to side as they march, to feel the beat. Then we march in place. Then I give names to quarter note.

When parents join in, it can be entertaining to see kick-backs, high steps, Elaine style dancing from Seinfeld, off-best clapping... it takes work!

Next, I can demonstrate the half-note with clap-hold, or show "two eights" with two claps per side. The feet always keep marching. Either way, those that have rhythm catch on quickly. Those that do not, takes a lot lots lot of repetition and work and teaching!!


Thanks for the responses!


Learning as I teach.
Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
missbelle #3008774 07/31/20 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by missbelle
Another question-

If I am directing a large group (band, orchestra, choir) and I want them to play and hold on beat three of measure 64, (to check notes, dynamics contrast between interments, whatever) how do I say that if they do not know how to count beats?

"Trombones- the 2nd ta, vocalists - titi, flutes you are resting, violins- you will start on tiki...etc" if they do not know the count, but only syllables, how do you get an ensemble to play and hold beat three of measure 64?

Surely at that point, they have switched to standard counting?
Please speak to me through the score!

Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3008967 08/01/20 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by missbelle
Most young kids have not had fractions yet in math.

I start with "beats in the feet" and have them march. Then I have them clap side to side as they march, to feel the beat. Then we march in place. Then I give names to quarter note.
Its OK; but why not add claps and the pronunciation of tu-ta tu-ta to each step?

Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3008969 08/01/20 01:31 AM
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Last edited by Nahum; 08/01/20 01:34 AM.
Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3010174 08/04/20 01:36 PM
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I stumbled upon this book by Gary Corcoran Addition System for Teaching and Learning Rhythm, which was published in 1993.

http://www.nhbda.org/corcoran-addition-system-for-counting-rhythm.html

It is worth paying attention to the year of publication - 1993; three years before the development of the "Takadimi" rhythm training system, associated with the Hindu Konnakol and suited to modern rhythms. The basic ideas outlined in the book are similar to what I have stated in various forums (although I don't agree with everything ).
Nevertheless, for another 25 additional years, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of students continue to torment themselves over reading the rhythm, as if it was a 19th century on the street ...

Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3010184 08/04/20 02:15 PM
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Huh?
I learned rhythm relationships back in the childhood dark ages and never felt tormented. It always felt like interrelated puzzle pieces that fit nicely together in a pattern.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3010195 08/04/20 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Huh?
I learned rhythm relationships back in the childhood dark ages and never felt tormented. It always felt like interrelated puzzle pieces that fit nicely together in a pattern.
Congratulations! It is Corcoran who writes about people like you: "If there are many students who read rhythm very well; it is despite the accepted system" (inaccurate quote).
I cannot congratulate the bulk of my students ...

Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3010319 08/05/20 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Congratulations! It is Corcoran who writes about people like you: "If there are many students who read rhythm very well; it is despite the accepted system" (inaccurate quote).
I cannot congratulate the bulk of my students ...

I think a lot of rhythm problems actually go away on their own once the student hits a certain age of cognitive development. It is different for each individual student.

Before they hit that age, it doesn't matter how good a piano teacher you are. You will not get through to them.

And then there are those adults who never got around to that cognitive threshold, and they will NEVER count correctly. If you got these as your students, pick your battles.


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Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
AZNpiano #3010323 08/05/20 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Before they hit that age, it doesn't matter how good a piano teacher you are. You will not get through to them.
And what about African children there? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7kMm6pu6iU

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And then there are those adults who never got around to that cognitive threshold, and they will NEVER count correctly.
They learn not to count the rhythm, but to feel it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr8-AL9XOOY

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If you got these as your students, pick your battles.
This is not a battle for me; I do this with pleasure with every student, and the main thing first is to pull his sense of rhythm up, and not play the correct rhythm. Even modest progress in the rhythm feel is already an achievement!

And the main thing for the teacher is to get out of the box!

Last edited by Nahum; 08/05/20 01:36 AM.
Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3010362 08/05/20 05:16 AM
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One of the most inventive ways of teaching some to understand rhythm and note relationships was a pizza cut into pieces do the student could visualize the relationships.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3010373 08/05/20 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
One of the most inventive ways of teaching some to understand rhythm and note relationships was a pizza cut into pieces do the student could visualize the relationships.

Without doubt! If pizza divides in half - suitable for Pizzica rhythm ; if divided by three - for the Tarantella rhythm.

Re: interesting phenomenon in the work at rhythm stability
Nahum #3010737 08/06/20 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by dogperson
One of the most inventive ways of teaching some to understand rhythm and note relationships was a pizza cut into pieces do the student could visualize the relationships.

Without doubt! If pizza divides in half - suitable for Pizzica rhythm ; if divided by three - for the Tarantella rhythm.

It depends on how hungry I am. I always cut it in at least 4, sometimes more.


gotta go practice
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