Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum How does duplex scale affect?

I don't know much about the duplex but I heard it adds longer sustainability to resonance.
I watched several youtube clips and it seems tuning easy not easy for the grand with duplex.
I heard some people don't like it , why? Also heard without duplex, sounds clearer and simpler.
Is it true?

A good piano, well executed is not reliant on whether there is or is not a duplex, nor can you add or subtract a single element of a piano design and make a broad statement that is is better or worse.

A piano that meets your needs and you like is what you want. Duplex or not is irrelevant

My tech, who is well known nationally, thinks duplex scaling is more or less BS.

Well put Steve.

I will add that having added sympathetic resonance is good.... unless it isn't. I have seen pianos in homes that have had their duplexes deadened with felt because they did not like the extra very high overtones that they added to the sound.

As Steve has already said, it is just one ingredient to the overall scale design of a given piano, and a small one at that. Bridge placement, bridge design, soundboard design, rim material, and hammer design are all much more important to the tone of the piano. Sit down and play. Choose your piano by its performance, not by its features.

My 2 cents,

On some pianos, the duplex is really annoying. Those screaming whistles... 😳

More to the point, duplex scaling gets blamed for sounds caused by other things, so the root cause is not taken care of.

For your three questions.
1) Maybe, probably not, if it does is likely to be piano specific, not likely to be significant if it even does this.
2) You'd have to ask the person expressing that dislike.
3) That may well be generally true but, again, the effect of duplex stringing will be different from one piano design to another. Try listening to a few pianos with and without the duplex muted and see if you have a preference. Or better still just choose the piano who's tone you like whether it has duplex stringing or not.

It's best not to think of it as a "feature" or "upgrade" but rather a design element that contributes to the whole. It's a very old design idea.

Historically, quite a few mass produced instruments would simplify their design (or someone else's) by muting off the rear duplex and simplifying the front duplex. This saved on manufacturing costs and may be why it is associated with lesser designs. However, a few notable premium instruments do not rely on duplex scaling and handle the waste lengths very differently.

The complaints noted above are common when duplex scaling isn't executed well or is tinkered with. On some pianos, it's something to go right while on others its something that can go wrong. I know of a few makers with more recently designed models that have a great approach to their duplex scaling.

Touching on the physics of the problem, duplex scaling contributes to the attack portion of the tone more than the sustain. While activating certain resonances on other strings (providing fullness and complexity), the energy dissipates more quickly from the played strings, so it's a net loss to sustain. Played together and well executed, the tradeoffs become part of the flavor of the piano.

That is my favorite line from your post, Sam. But it was much more articulately said in its entirety than my poor attempt. Kudos.

I really am unfamiliar with duplexes. But I seem to remember comment on tuned versus untuned duplexes. Is this something to discuss?

I suppose I could rummage around in the archives and get the humongous duplex thread around the time I got my piano, but ... I'm lazy.

How many entries does he have on allmusic.com as technician?

If what he meant was - "pianos having a duplex" = "better piano" than he is absolutely correct.

But I go back to Sam's analogy of the duplex being a part of the flavor of a piano. It would be a bit like saying "anything with garlic tastes better than anything without it."

.....of course, being a Galassini, I actually DO think that anything with garlic tastes better than anything without it.

(Thankfully, my mother, being German, counterbalanced my palette).

I'm not sure if he meant"having a duplex=better piano" or it made no sense to try and tune the duplex on my Mason BB. I just think he wasn't a duplex fan.

I have no idea but he has invented a popular tuning hammer, written a highly regarded book on tuning for technicians, writes articles in the PTG journal, regularly lectures at the national PTG conferences, and seems to be highly respected by other techs. Even more important he is an incredibly nice person and is very good at understanding anything I tell him in layman's terms about my piano.

It's not tuned vs. untuned, it's tunable vs. fixed position. Not many pianos have tuneable duplex in the front. Estonia pianos are one of the few that do. I believe Fazioli does as well. If I recall, Schimmel's Konzert-series grands added this feature in the last decade...if someone can confirm.

IMO, rear duplexing affects the sound but is less prone to strong sizzles and problems, even when sloppily executed, so fixed duplex bars are the norm. It's also easy to mute off. When precise, the contribution of rear duplexing is more significant, but whether pleasing or not is still subjective.

Tuneable duplex allow the factory to better deal with any tiny variations in the plate casting or string terminations. It would also give field techs more options when dealing with unwanted duplex noise.

But you could have checked.

Usually the guys listed there work with actual pianists and concert grands and sound components, including the harmonics created by a front and rear duplex scale play an eminent role in the way the recorded piano will sound later on.

To put it bluntly: Maintaining that a duplex scale is BS doesn't really qualify as an opinion based on high level experience.

You omitted the part of my post where I listed my tech's experience and accomplishments that I think should convince a reasonable person that his ideas are at least worthy of consideration. Excellent techs don't agree about everything and there may be other good techs that would disagree with mine. My tech has experience both with recordings and tuning for professional pianists.

https://www.helmholtz-muenchen.de/science-and-music#150035

https://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/...development-process-of-the-duplex-scale/

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._process_of_the_grand_piano_duplex_scale

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01161421/document

I know, it's all BS, because your nationally known nameless technician says so.

Since I am an unreasonable person who doesn't consider calling something just BS without further explanation, I won't give this "idea" any further consideration. Actual science is a better advisor, so let's leave it at that.

He has published a fairly well known book on piano tuning, was the tuning editor for the PTG journal, and has created a line of fairly innovative tuning levers. I know many technicians (myself included) who use levers that he designed.