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Originally Posted by chopinetto
Originally Posted by boo1234
Another: Symphony fantastique is a fantasique piece of trash like everything I have heard from berlioz.

Brahms is highly overrated, boring, and rambles on and on without many memorable melodies.

Bach: The suites and partitas are better than the WTC.

Wagner: The tristan chord is not that big of a deal.
I agree with all of this.
That's unfortunate. grin


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Originally Posted by boo1234
Another: Symphony fantastique is a fantasique piece of trash like everything I have heard from berlioz.

Brahms is highly overrated, boring, and rambles on and on without many memorable melodies.

Bach: The suites and partitas are better than the WTC.

Wagner: The tristan chord is not that big of a deal.

I agree with point 3. The rest should remain unpopular opinions 😃

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Originally Posted by boo1234
Brahms is highly overrated, boring, and rambles on and on without many memorable melodies.

This is probably an overplayed movement, but it still contains one of the most memorable melodies ever written (incidentally, this theme is 20-25 seconds long, so it has become my new hand-washing tune instead of singing happy birthday twice:))



Even Carlos Santana could not resist it:



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I agree about the Symphonie Fantastique. I've listened to this piece countless of times only because it's often chosen as the second part of many live concerts I've been to. This thread makes me think I will probably swear to leave after the first part the very next time there's the Symphonie Fantastique chosen as the second part laugh

I strongly disagree with the rest of the points: Bach's WTC is much better IMO than partitas and suites. Can't believe one may feel the other way around... shocked

Brahms: well, not exactly my favorite composer but he's actually created some of the most memorable melodies... Maybe a problem I have with some of his music is that he tends to go into a self-restraint (similar to Schumann). But melodies are IMO one of his strongest skills.

The tristan-chord. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the theory behind, however it's not just a half-diminished chord. What's significant about this "chord", and the harmony in Wagner as a whole, is the radical chromatic approach that he uses to resolve the tension. The tristan chord is just one particular instance and is not significant in itself, however it's interesting because it matches enharmonically a half-diminished chord but has nothing to do with the function a half-diminished chords usually takes or the resolution of its tones. And so, it's not a chord per-se. It's truly a remarkable evolution of harmony in music and while that may not be very obvious (hence I can understand why someone can not find it such a big deal), a deeper analysis of it has objectively proven that it IS a big deal smile

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
The tristan-chord. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the theory behind, however it's not just a half-diminished chord. What's significant about this "chord", and the harmony in Wagner as a whole, is the radical chromatic approach that he uses to resolve the tension. The tristan chord is just one particular instance and is not significant in itself, however it's interesting because it matches enharmonically a half-diminished chord but has nothing to do with the function a half-diminished chords usually takes or the resolution of its tones. And so, it's not a chord per-se. It's truly a remarkable evolution of harmony in music and while that may not be very obvious (hence I can understand why someone can not find it such a big deal), a deeper analysis of it has objectively proven that it IS a big deal smile
I agree. The chord is more sonority than harmony IMO. And yes, attempts to describe its functional characteristics in terms of standard harmonic practice up to the second half of the 19th century (altered diminished seventh, French sixth with an appoggiatura, etc.) all fall short as far as I'm concerned. Here's a concise and not-too-bad little essay on it: https://www.monsalvat.no/tristanchord.htm


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Originally Posted by boo1234
Another: Symphony fantastique is a fantasique piece of trash like everything I have heard from berlioz.

Brahms is highly overrated, boring, and rambles on and on without many memorable melodies.

Bach: The suites and partitas are better than the WTC.

Wagner: The tristan chord is not that big of a deal.

I find the Symphony fantastique to be a wonderful piece of music. Certainly much more creative and innovative than most symphonies written after Beethoven, and pretty much everything Berlioz wrote is wonderful. A very underappreciated composer including in his own country. So i guess your opinion is pretty common.

I also dont agree about Brahms.

For Bach, i dont know what better means. I certainly enjoy more listening to the partita than to the WTC, but i would not qualify them as better.

For Wagner, an absolutely ridiculous amount of litterature has been written on this chord and its non resolution, most people have forgotten that there are multiple precedents. But that said Wagner chromaticism was revolutionary in his time.

Just to say, that anybody can find composers or pieces that one dislike or think it is trash.

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Originally Posted by boo1234
Another: Symphony fantastique is a fantasique piece of trash like everything I have heard from berlioz.

Well all I can say is that you seem to have absorbed the general critical opinion of Berlioz up to the middle of the twentieth century, before the dramatic reappraisal of more recent years. Perhaps you should try listening with fresh ears? He is one of the very greatest of Romantic composers - and perhaps shares with Mozart the accolade of being my favourite composer. Have you seen "Les Troyens"? One of the very greatest of operas. Up there with the "Ring". The scenes with Cassandra and Dido reduce me to tears every time.

Or "La Spectre de la Rose" from "Les Nuits d'Ete"? One of the most heart-wrenchingly beautiful songs ever written.

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I think Berlioz (and also Bizet) are underated.

Some music of Brahms has enough classical influence to dominate the originality, but alot of his music is also highly original. Examples:

Serenade in D
Rhapsody in Gm Op 79 #2
Variations on a Theme of Paganini
Chamber music in general


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Bizet is wonderful. Another tragic early death.

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Santana was not the only rock band to use material from Brahms. The band Yes did as well. Here is their keyboard player Rick Wakeman playing his arrangement for synthesizers of the 3rd movement of Brahms symphony #4.

https://youtu.be/Y-WVhhr4uDc


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Santana was not the only rock band to use material from Brahms. The band Yes did as well. Here is their keyboard player Rick Wakeman playing his arrangement for synthesizers of the 3rd movement of Brahms symphony #4.

https://youtu.be/Y-WVhhr4uDc

This is really cool! So clever of him to take this movement up, it sounds good. Thanks for sharing.


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Originally Posted by David-G
Or "La Spectre de la Rose" from "Les Nuits d'Ete"? One of the most heart-wrenchingly beautiful songs ever written.
Absolutely agree. J'arrive du paradis indeed.


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Originally Posted by Ainar
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Santana was not the only rock band to use material from Brahms. The band Yes did as well. Here is their keyboard player Rick Wakeman playing his arrangement for synthesizers of the 3rd movement of Brahms symphony #4.

https://youtu.be/Y-WVhhr4uDc

This is really cool! So clever of him to take this movement up, it sounds good. Thanks for sharing.

It was originally released in 1971 on the album Fragile. I'm not sure what arrangement he was playing in the concert, but this is the (first page of the) arrangement used for the 1971 recording:

https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0054285


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Yes had other classical influences. Their album Close to The Edge was organized as three suites each with separate movements. One of the organ solos was recorded on the pipe organ at the St Giles-without-Cripplegate church in London. And Jon Anderson has said that he got the inspiration for part of the album when reading Lord of the Rings while listening to Sibelius symphonies.


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Originally Posted by Vilhelm Moqvist
Originally Posted by Brendan
Mine:

Hammerklavier, despite being a big piece, is not a good piece; it's complicated for the sake of being complicated and isn't enjoyable to listen to.

You can't be serious... The third movement contains some of the most beautiful music ever written!

The third movement is indeed beautiful, but then it and the rest of the piece is ruined by that absolutely horrible finale!

Originally Posted by boo1234
Another: Symphony fantastique is a fantasique piece of trash like everything I have heard from berlioz.

I hated SF until I heard the Liszt transcription performed live by Christopher O'Riley and was blown away on every level by both the piece and the performance. It made me think of that story of Liszt playing it and making it sound more exciting than the original.

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Yes's 1973 live album Yessongs opened with Stravinsky's Firebird.

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Originally Posted by Brendan
Originally Posted by Vilhelm Moqvist
Originally Posted by Brendan
Mine:

Hammerklavier, despite being a big piece, is not a good piece; it's complicated for the sake of being complicated and isn't enjoyable to listen to.

You can't be serious... The third movement contains some of the most beautiful music ever written!

The third movement is indeed beautiful, but then it and the rest of the piece is ruined by that absolutely horrible finale!
I can understand why people don't like the finale... but I don't agree grin

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Originally Posted by Brendan
The third movement is indeed beautiful, but then it and the rest of the piece is ruined by that absolutely horrible finale!
I have tried listening to that movement several times and never made it past the first two minutes. I did hear Jerome Lowenthal play the whole sonata at the Miller Theater at Columbia University a long time ago. His encore was Rachmaninov Daises but I can't remember the rest of the program.

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Originally Posted by Vilhelm Moqvist
I can understand why people don't like the finale... but I don't agree grin

I love every movement from the sonata, but I think the fugue is its crowning glory.

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The slow movement of the Hammerklavier is about twenty minutes too long.

(25 minutes, if the pianist plays it in 25 minutes).

The fugue is definitely the best part of the sonata.


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