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Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
Otavio #3006197 07/24/20 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Otavio
[Linked Image]

They leaked the presentation through another channel. For those who understand Indonesian. I couldn't bear it myself (and it's not about the language).


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Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3006200 07/24/20 04:38 AM
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I speak a little Indonesian:

She says the piano is uncannily close to the real thing, and that she can detect all sorts of subtleties between ppp and fff. “If I hit the keys real hard, I hear a very loud but complex response“. Her favorite finish is the rosewood.

And about that action, it is simply indistinguishable from the real thing, “how did they do it“, she says.

Needless to say, she firmly believes this is the best digital out there.


P.S.

The song at the beginning is about love, peace, and the world coming together in kumbaya-well-balanced richness!

Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3006202 07/24/20 04:42 AM
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grin

Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
Pete14 #3006215 07/24/20 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I speak a little Indonesian:

She says the piano is uncannily close to the real thing, and that she can detect all sorts of subtleties between ppp and fff. “If I hit the keys real hard, I hear a very loud but complex response“. Her favorite finish is the rosewood.

And about that action, it is simply indistinguishable from the real thing, “how did they do it“, she says.

Needless to say, she firmly believes this is the best digital out there.


P.S.

The song at the beginning is about love, peace, and the world coming together in kumbaya-well-balanced richness!

Infinite sense of humour reported! Read the post at your own risk if you are too serious about digital pianos! laugh


www.youtube.com/channel/UC073i6RnxK4NcnoFp1jYh7Q The place where I ocasionally post my amateur recordings smile
Criticism is welcomed since it helps improving and going forward!

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Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
Frédéric L #3007065 07/26/20 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Almaviva
Other than that, the CLP685 and CLP785 are pretty much identical; no changes at all to the action, pedals and sound system.

According to the Yamaha site (which is not clear) and the MIDI implementation chart, the new sound system system is sensitive to the key acceleration.

Isn't the CLP685 sensitive to key acceleration as well?

Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
tudor33sud #3007072 07/26/20 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tudor33sud
Originally Posted by Pete14
I speak a little Indonesian:

She says the piano is uncannily close to the real thing, and that she can detect all sorts of subtleties between ppp and fff. “If I hit the keys real hard, I hear a very loud but complex response“. Her favorite finish is the rosewood.

And about that action, it is simply indistinguishable from the real thing, “how did they do it“, she says.

Needless to say, she firmly believes this is the best digital out there.


P.S.

The song at the beginning is about love, peace, and the world coming together in kumbaya-well-balanced richness!

Infinite sense of humour reported! Read the post at your own risk if you are too serious about digital pianos! laugh

Ah! But she's lovely. She can say do what she wants, do what she wants!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3010018 08/03/20 08:14 PM
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I'm glad to know I'm not the only one confused by the 700 series, LOL. I'm on Kraft Music, comparing specs on the 600 and 700 GPs and.....so, why did Yamaha do this? The 700 series of GPs drops midi and Bluetooth, opting only for USB. The 600 series had all 3. 4 more voices in the 795. Grand Touch S action in the 765. Supposedly some different sampling?

That's....about it?


Lisa

Playing RCM 8 repertoire
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP & CLP645

"I tell my piano the things I used to tell you." - Frederic Chopin
Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
ebonykawai #3010042 08/03/20 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ebonykawai
That's....about it?

I expect there are more "under the hood" changes that aren't immediately obvious from comparing specification tables. This is why it's important to play-test instruments in person whenever and wherever possible.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3010049 08/03/20 09:38 PM
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I have been looking at the specs of all the models in the 700 series on the Yamaha website, and it seems like only the CLP 785 has the counter-weights. Which is the most expenssive one, probably gonna be around 4000,- euros, if not more.

Which is kinda weird, cause i belive the CA79 also comes with counter-weights, and is around 3000,- euros, a thousand euro less.... am i missing something?


Yamaha AvantGrand N1, KORG Pa4X Oriental
Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
Ozan #3010061 08/03/20 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozan
I have been looking at the specs of all the models in the 700 series on the Yamaha website, and it seems like only the CLP 785 has the counter-weights. Which is the most expenssive one, probably gonna be around 4000,- euros, if not more.

Which is kinda weird, cause i belive the CA79 also comes with counter-weights, and is around 3000,- euros, a thousand euro less.... am i missing something?

The CN29 is around 1250 Euros and also includes counterweights. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the CN29 (with counterweights) is a better instrument than the CLP-775 (without counterweights). It's important to consider the instrument as a whole, rather than focus too much on individual specifications.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
Kawai James #3010123 08/04/20 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Ozan
I have been looking at the specs of all the models in the 700 series on the Yamaha website, and it seems like only the CLP 785 has the counter-weights. Which is the most expenssive one, probably gonna be around 4000,- euros, if not more.

Which is kinda weird, cause i belive the CA79 also comes with counter-weights, and is around 3000,- euros, a thousand euro less.... am i missing something?

The CN29 is around 1250 Euros and also includes counterweights. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the CN29 (with counterweights) is a better instrument than the CLP-775 (without counterweights). It's important to consider the instrument as a whole, rather than focus too much on individual specifications.

Kind regards,
James
x


So , i really cannot sense counter weights on digital actions. For example, I believe es8 has counter weights, and i couldn't sense something different than nwx action other than the usual differences because it is different, but has no counterweights


Yamaha P155, Yamaha P515
Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3010154 08/04/20 11:05 AM
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Counterweights are just another silly emulation on digital pianos that shouldn't be there smile On real acoustic pianos the bass hammers need to be big and heavy and that makes the downweight of these keys too high which affects pianissimo playing. When you play very quiet the downweight is most easily perceptible and would act almost like a spring against your fingers. By adding lead weights you put the downweight within the expected range and so pianissimo playing is more predictable and even across the keys. But it adds more inertia to the keys and that feels like sluggish keys on fortissimo strokes smile It's a sacrifice.

I understand the viewpoint that digital pianos should emulate acoustic pianos even with their quirks, so I'm OK with that. However going as far as making the bass keys overly heavy as on a big concert grand and then putting counterweights is just a silly thing IMO. The keyboard in the Cybrid doesn't have counterweights and even without them the bass hammers are not very heavy, the downweight is around 50g and then the treble keys go as low as 36g downweight and honestly that's so pleasant to play. I believe it's from a small baby grand. Coincidentally I read some passages from a Chopin book with quotes from Chopin himself and his students about how his preference has been always for the Pleyel as having very light keyboard with shallow key dip. His fortissimo was nowhere near today's thunderous tone and he never played too loud, referring to "dog barks" when his pupils played too loud. I understand it's all about preference after all. But if it was me, I'd prefer keyboards with light hammers and no counterweights.

Last edited by CyberGene; 08/04/20 11:06 AM.

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Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3010156 08/04/20 11:25 AM
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As I understand it, counterweights are not some fundamental principle/requirement for a key or action. They're a tool that can employed when the need arises. So if you have a key that is unbalanced because it's too heavy on the action end of the balance rail, or an action that is on the heavy side, one way you can mitigate it is with counterweights on the front of the keys.

Taken by itself, advertising counterweights is kind of odd IMO. It's kind of like saying "our keys/action aren't well-balanced so we've fixed them with counterweights."

Also, counterweights have their own drawbacks, such as increasing dynamic downweight, slowing key return and repetition rates, etc.

As Kawai James says, don't just assume actions with counterweights are better by nature of having them. An ideal action would probably be designed to minimize or eliminate the need for counterweights; but counterweights can be an effective solution if your action can't be designed that way.


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Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3010162 08/04/20 11:51 AM
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“Key weights”, as well as “escapement “, are simply good for selling/marketing digital pianos to those obsessed with coming as close as possible to the real thing regardless of whether some aspects related to the ‘real’ thing are not relevant to the digital domain, and, sometimes, even make things worse.

Most people haven’t got a clue why these weights exist on an acoustic piano, but if a digital also has similar weights it must mean that the digital “is closer to an acoustic”.

If I’m not mistaken, escapement on a real acoustic happens by fault rather than by default, yet many here would not buy a digital if it doesn’t have that “click” that feels so good!

Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
Gombessa #3010168 08/04/20 12:25 PM
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Bingo! The mechanics and dynamics of acoustic pianos present design problems and force compromises.
So it's odd and silly that digital pianos should emulate those problems and implement the compromises ... all in the name of authenticity.
It's absurd.

If digitals had been invented three centuries ago, how many of the compromises would be present?
Would counterweights be there?
Would escapement?
Would wood?
Originally Posted by Gombessa
As I understand it, counterweights are not some fundamental principle/requirement for a key or action. They're a tool that can employed when the need arises. So if you have a key that is unbalanced because it's too heavy on the action end of the balance rail, or an action that is on the heavy side, one way you can mitigate it is with counterweights on the front of the keys.

Taken by itself, advertising counterweights is kind of odd IMO. It's kind of like saying "our keys/action aren't well-balanced so we've fixed them with counterweights."

Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3010213 08/04/20 03:29 PM
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There are other electronic keyboard instruments that are not designed to be acoustic piano substitutes.

If you don't want to play an electronic instrument like the piano is played then get one of those.

I don't see any problem in digital PIANOS trying to faithfully emulate a "real" piano.

But I also don't diss these digital substitutes and say that the ultimate goal should be getting an acoustic.

Of course some of the emulations might not really be needed for most of the world's population (like me) who are clueless enough to not miss the feel of the escapement for example.

Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3010215 08/04/20 03:32 PM
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The key-off sound in the harpsichord ("cembalo" in some languages) is also a side effect of the action design.

How do we feel about harpsichord sounds in digital pianos that omit that sound?

We say that they are not authentic.

Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
CyberGene #3010268 08/04/20 06:44 PM
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I believe the general consensus among those who have played actions with and without counterweights is that their presence in digital piano actions improves the key touch. For example, most players prefer the RHIII action (with counterweights) to that of RHII (without counterweights). The same is often said for the CLP-685 (GrandTouch with counterweights) vs the CLP-675 (GrandTouch without counterweights).

Kind regards,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3010305 08/04/20 10:06 PM
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@Kawai James, my impression of counterweights were that they where added as such, so one could have more control overall, or like play repeated notes faster....

Thats why it kinda weirded me out when i saw that only the most expenssive one came with counterweights, and the other models dont. So, one immediatly thinks "this one comes with counterweights and is more expenssive, so it must be an better digital piano" smile

But, looking at some of the comments, some people dont care about the counterweights.... they are fine without it, it seems.

I myself, have been playing on a N1 AvantGrand these passed few years, (which ofcourse has a real grand action build-in) so by no means am i an expert when it comes to digital pianos, as i dont have much exprerience with them, and the "bells and whistels" or "extras" they come with smile

Me, personally, care only about the piano sound, and the feel & touch of the keyboard. (as in, does it come close to an real grand action as close as possible) The rest i dont need.


Yamaha AvantGrand N1, KORG Pa4X Oriental
Re: Yamaha Clavinova CLP-700 Series
9190 #3010592 08/05/20 06:42 PM
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Clp 785 - Sweetwater


Sweetwater usually releases videos in advance about new releases for sale
Let's hope we have a Yamaha video soon.

Last edited by Otavio; 08/05/20 06:43 PM.
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