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Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
Lucubrate #3005423 07/22/20 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Lucubrate
Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
I just finished reading all of these boss and here's what I learned...

1. No baby grand.
2. No upright pianos.
3. Get 7' grand.

Excellent!

I wouldn’t rule out an upright, if space prevents You from accommodating a Grand. The Top Tier German Uprights are Wonderful, but Spendy. Still, They are not Grands

7 foot is a Legit Grand. There are some smaller that punch above Their weight & are more than adequate

Above, You inquired about lower cost options. There are a lot of Them, & since You asked, I’ll give You a name I’ve played, as well as heard Great things about,... Estonia. They’re an upper end instrument at a Good price

Check Them out,... post questions on the Piano Forum about Them, or any others You’re interested in


Great Luck!

~Lucubrate


I'll check them out. Thanks. Quite disheartening I can't start learning piano using a proper piano.


Yamaha P-515
In the market for an acoustic grand.
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Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005427 07/22/20 02:39 AM
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Don’t get too Disheartened

Most aspects related to getting started with Pianos, is Humbling

Acquiring a general understanding of the different Brands, models, designs,... Becoming familiar with the Piano Market, new/used, prices, negotiating,...
Learning the Instrument itself, teachers, course books, online Apps,...

There’s a lot to learn & assimilate. Acknowledge this & embrace the Journey

Regarding prices - I believe You listed MSRP. Generally, pianos (even the Ones You listed) sell for a material discount to MSRP. Hope that makes You feel a bit Better

Keep Your Chin Up & have Fun!


Great Luck!

~Lucubrate

Last edited by Lucubrate; 07/22/20 02:46 AM.

Bösendorfer 280VC
Steingraeber 130

“First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.“ ~Epictetus
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005428 07/22/20 04:07 AM
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IMHO Beginning pianist? Go find a decent used upright, or digital, get it inspected if an upright, and start playing. IMHO, you will not even need to question ‘Do I need a grand’ for many years and by then you will have had time to learn about brands and preferences in brands, touch and tone.

The goal should be learning to play and making music.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005432 07/22/20 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
My goal is to be good at classical music playing.

my goal as well, now seven and a half years into my journey to getting there. I don't have a grand, I don't expect to ever get one really, but I don't think I am missing out by not having one. However, if I were to even look at getting a grand I would be looking at something much cheaper than those makes and models posted.


Following Trying to follow the Ling Ling 40 hour method

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


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Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
dogperson #3005443 07/22/20 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
The goal should be learning to play and making music.

Agree 100%


~Lucubrate


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“First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.“ ~Epictetus
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005448 07/22/20 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
More pricing

Shigeru SK-6 (7') - $100k
Shigeru SK-7 (7.6) - $115k
Shigeru SK-EX (9') - $250k

Mason & Hamlin CC94 (9') - $130k
Mason & Hamlin BB (7') - $80k

Bösendorfer 214VC (7') - $160
Bösendorfer 225 (7.4') - $180k
Bösendorfer 280VC (9') - $230k
Bösendorfer 290 (9.6') - $260k

Yamaha CFX (9') - $180k
Yamaha CF6 (7') - $120k

Fazioli F308 (10') - $225k
Fazioli F278 (9.2'} - $205k
Fazioli F228 (7.6') - $153

Bluthner 2 (7.8') - $147k
Bluthner 1 (9') - $200k

I haven't even checked Bechstein, and looking at these prices, I can see now that I'm not getting a 7-9 grand piano anytime soon. This is more of a 2 years later or more consideration for me.

Should I work at a piano shop? LOL Find a church or university and ask if I could use their instrument?
You're over-thinking everything far too much. Like a beginner learning to drive, and wanting to buy a Rolls-Royce or Ferrari immediately, even before he has his driving licence.

FWIW, I've never owned an acoustic, and practice exclusively on my digital which I bought in 2010. I perform on a 6-foot grand once a month (until C-19 struck, that is). BTW, any grand over 6 feet long is fine. Why do you have to buy new?

Just get started with a decent digital.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005470 07/22/20 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
I just finished reading all of these boss and here's what I learned...

1. No baby grand.
2. No upright pianos.
3. Get 7' grand.

Sorry to say, but this is all non sense. Its like beginners in tennis who want to immediately buy the best racket they can afford even though they cant yet manage to hit the ball properly. Get yourself a reasonably good piano, not too expensive, any good digital, upright or grand of any size will do. Plus you dont want to spend a fortune on a piano when you dont have any experience of what you like or dislike in a piano. Your budget, space and other constraints will dictate how much you can reasonably spend and the type of piano, and assume that in a few years, you will anyway need to change. Test the keyboard so that you get one that has a smooth action, not too heavy and has a sound that you like. For a beginner, i actually think that one of the most important feature is the ability to record yourself, rather than the size of the piano.

Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005474 07/22/20 07:38 AM
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There's no end to what you can achieve on an upright as a learner. The same goes for a decent digital.

I'd love to buy a 9-foot concert grand and a suitable hall to play it in, but that's not going to happen. It doesn't matter.

Some people can't afford a decent piano but are fantastic pianists. Some mediocre pianists have fantastic pianos. The piano doesn't decide how good you can become.

Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
johnstaf #3005477 07/22/20 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
There's no end to what you can achieve on an upright as a learner. The same goes for a decent digital.

I'd love to buy a 9-foot concert grand and a suitable hall to play it in, but that's not going to happen. It doesn't matter.

Some people can't afford a decent piano but are fantastic pianists. Some mediocre pianists have fantastic pianos. The piano doesn't decide how good you can become.



thumb back in ancient times, there was barely a question of getting a grand. The typical home had an upright piano, of varying quality and maintenance. I’ve never seen that anyone was scarred by it or progress limited by it. After all, Lang Lang survived on less than a top-tier upright until he left home.

Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005491 07/22/20 08:35 AM
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My eyes have rolled onto the floor and across the room lol. crazy

OP is a beginner. All this talk about high-end, top-tier 9’ concert grands? Come on! Get real!

OP - set a realistic budget (YOUR realistic budget), buy a piano and start learning. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant right now. Seriously, the way your threads are going (asking about a $2K Young Chang, then a Steinway Model D, etc), it’s pretty hard to continue to take you seriously.

Ok, my apologies. Rant over.


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Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
dogperson #3005493 07/22/20 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
IMHO Beginning pianist? Go find a decent used upright, or digital, get it inspected if an upright, and start playing. IMHO, you will not even need to question ‘Do I need a grand’ for many years and by then you will have had time to learn about brands and preferences in brands, touch and tone.

The goal should be learning to play and making music.

+1.


. Charles
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Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005502 07/22/20 09:06 AM
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For the sake of the discussion, here is a news story from CGTN made a year ago about a young Chinese-American piano prodigy William Zhang from Atlanta Georgia. His parents bought him a $20,000 piano at age 2.
Child piano prodigy graces Carnegie Hall stage

It's an investment along with the music lessons even my parents would hesitate to make. Our family had a Yamaha upright when nobody at home could play and DPs were low quality. We had a teacher and learned songs like "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and "Twinkle". The family had a battery-operated toy piano with about 30 keys. Nobody in the family would think someone is going to get into playing a Mozart or Beethoven sonata at a young age.

FF a few decades I'm an adult piano learner with an 88 DP at home. Our family gave up an acoustic piano years ago. The portable keyboard at home can be put back into the closet when guests are coming. When people come to your place and see an acoustic piano in the room, they assumed that you must know how to play a few songs.

Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005505 07/22/20 09:15 AM
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Here is a true story from a few years ago which I've related before in another thread:

I was trying out a few grands in Steinway Hall, when I was approached by a man & his wife who were looking to buy a grand for themselves and their little daughter. It was their third visit to the showroom, and they were as confused as on their first visit about what a good piano should be, because they'd never played any musical instrument. Apparently, after hearing me play, they thought I was the right person to demonstrate the pianos for them, and help them choose whistle. (They didn't want to be subjected to sales patter by Steinway's staff).

So, I did, after asking them how much they were willing to spend etc. (I'd no idea how well-off they were). When the piano (a 6-foot grand - not Steinway) was delivered at their home, they invited me for dinner to show them how the piano sounded like there. They had a big house set in spacious grounds - they were obviously very rich, and the piano only took up a small space on one end of their lounge: they could easily fit in a Bösendorfer Imperial there. I also gave their little girl a short beginner's lesson, which told me that she really was quite musical (much more so than I ever was as a kid). I'd brought with me a CD box of 'Favourite Piano Pieces' which included the usual stuff like Für Elise, Rondo alla turca, Moonlight Sonata, Clair de lune etc (all played by great pianists), as a present for the family, and to introduce them to the amazing riches in piano music.

Before I left, I gave them a list of qualified piano teachers who taught in their area, and advised them that their daughter - especially - needed a good teacher, because she was talented and could go very far.

Six months later, having not heard from them, I rang them to see how they were getting on with their new piano and with piano lessons. To my dismay, they told me they'd decided to "teach" their daughter themselves, using YT videos. Then I heard their daughter thumping something in the background - completely unmusical, like a wrong-rhythm version of Twinkle, Twinkle that I taught her previously, with added tone clusters. cry I advised them again, that their daughter really, really needed a teacher, even if they didn't want to bother with one for themselves.

Two years later, the grand had become a piece of expensive furniture, and had had no maintenance after the initial tuning, and no-one was playing it. Well, the parents could easily afford expensive furniture, but I felt sorry for their daughter, and wondered what if.........

Were those parents more interested in the idea of playing the piano and owning a fine instrument, rather than actually playing it well and making music? I never found out.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
WeakLeftHand #3005509 07/22/20 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
My eyes have rolled onto the floor and across the room lol. crazy

OP is a beginner. All this talk about high-end, top-tier 9’ concert grands? Come on! Get real!

OP - set a realistic budget (YOUR realistic budget), buy a piano and start learning. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant right now. Seriously, the way your threads are going (asking about a $2K Young Chang, then a Steinway Model D, etc), it’s pretty hard to continue to take you seriously.

Ok, my apologies. Rant over.


I already have a digital piano bought this weekend. Hence my posts in the last week are in the digital forums.

I'm here now talking about acoustic because I AM in the market.


Yamaha P-515
In the market for an acoustic grand.
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005512 07/22/20 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
My eyes have rolled onto the floor and across the room lol. crazy

OP is a beginner. All this talk about high-end, top-tier 9’ concert grands? Come on! Get real!

OP - set a realistic budget (YOUR realistic budget), buy a piano and start learning. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant right now. Seriously, the way your threads are going (asking about a $2K Young Chang, then a Steinway Model D, etc), it’s pretty hard to continue to take you seriously.

Ok, my apologies. Rant over.


I already have a digital piano bought this weekend. Hence my posts in the last week are in the digital forums.

I'm here now talking about acoustic because I AM in the market.

Please do yourself a favor and refrain from buying an expensive acoustic. Your judgement and taste will likely changed.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005514 07/22/20 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
My eyes have rolled onto the floor and across the room lol. crazy

OP is a beginner. All this talk about high-end, top-tier 9’ concert grands? Come on! Get real!

OP - set a realistic budget (YOUR realistic budget), buy a piano and start learning. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant right now. Seriously, the way your threads are going (asking about a $2K Young Chang, then a Steinway Model D, etc), it’s pretty hard to continue to take you seriously.

Ok, my apologies. Rant over.


I already have a digital piano bought this weekend. Hence my posts in the last week are in the digital forums.

I'm here now talking about acoustic because I AM in the market.

I don’t doubt you are. Good luck with your piano journey.


Kawai K-500
Casio PX-735 (in retirement)
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005517 07/22/20 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
(I must buy NEW)

Why?


Austin Rogers, PhD
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Baldwin SD-10 Concert Grand "Kuroneko"
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
Dr. Rogers #3005519 07/22/20 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers
Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
(I must buy NEW)

Why?

It might be a cultural attitude.

Some people think of their piano as a status symbol. They have no problem dropping $90,000 on the smallest Steinway and just use it as furniture. If they make $250,000+ a year, why would they buy an upright??? I used to work for a client who made more than that, but all they wanted for their three kids is a lousy $1,500 stencil spinet.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
Dr. Rogers #3005528 07/22/20 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers
Originally Posted by onaiplatigid
(I must buy NEW)

Why?



I am following the forums. Look at it from the very start of the post, then follow the suggestions, the links, and you will arrive, maybe, at the same conclusion.


Yamaha P-515
In the market for an acoustic grand.
Re: Is it better to learn using a grand or doesn't matter?
onaiplatigid #3005531 07/22/20 10:18 AM
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From this thread, you will learn that used pianos are bad news, especially for beginners.
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...u-think-of-young-chang-pianos-u-121.html

Particularly this post
http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthr...oung-chang-pianos-u-121.html#Post3004966

Particularly this link
https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/advice-about-used-pianos/

And the links on this page
https://www.pianobuyer.com/buying-a-used-piano/

The conclusion gleaned from that research was "Don't buy used." And don't buy Young Chang (which was my consideration)
http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthr...oung-chang-pianos-u-121.html#Post3005278


So now, we arrive at what kind of NEW piano and that's how this thread started.
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...earn-using-a-grand-or-doesnt-matter.html

And from this post, you'll see that large grands what's right to buy
http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthr...-grand-or-doesnt-matter.html#Post3005391

Saying "Buy a used piano" and "Buy an upright" is ike going back to where we started and not learning or choosing not to learn. So, No and No. No used and no upright. Unless you have a stronger counter argument against the other posters' and against pianobuyer.


Yamaha P-515
In the market for an acoustic grand.
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