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In one of Bernstein's "Young People's Concerts" lectures he describes the common 1-2-3 melodic trick utilized by composer throughout the ages. He falsely attributes this to the opening of Beethoven 5 to include the intro, surprisingly. The 1-2-3 technique begins after the 8-note intro. The 3 "takeoff" appears on the return to the tonic after the dominant. Somewhat amusing of a mistake to be made by the great Lenny Bernstein I think.

https://youtu.be/2AFovpvDRCI?t=558

Well... If you and Bernstein have different opinions, I would humbly suggest you check yours again.

There's nothing to check.

Good for you

chopinetto:

I think you missed the point. This is what Bernstein was (very clearly) explaining with the Beethoven example.

Two fragments: 1) Ready, 2) Set, then the piece gets underway with 3) Go! His other examples suggested the same compositional technique.



No blunder on the maestro's point, I think.

Regards,

I think Bernstein's example in the Beethoven is fine.

I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. If you watch the lecture, he is breaking down a very specific kind of theme construction. In the Beethoven, the theme does not start until bar 6. The first five bars act as intro material preceding the theme.

I have never heard of this before. Can someone please explain this "melodic trick" to me or send me the link to the video in which it is explained? Thank you!

I see nothing wrong with Bernstein's example.

I would only be repeating myself now.

I thought this would be a no-brainer around here. Oops.

I believe you are correct and it's easy to see why. We can clearly see 1-2-3 idea once again after the introductory minor third at measure 24. Measure 25 and further follows with the same 1-2-3 idea as seen in measure 6. Therefore the introduction is not the main thematic material, at least not in the way that Bernstein is explaining it.

Finally.

Agreed, BruceD. Clearly illustrated starting at 9:20. Sorry, I don't agree with you, chopinetto, but a big thanks for sharing the video.

I think Bernstein is quite clear about what he means. It's not a mistake. Being obnoxious to forum members doesn't alter that.

I also see nothing wrong with Bernstein's analysis.

Just dismissing the first 5 bars by stating that "The first five bars act as intro material preceding the theme." explains nothing.

It's just an intro? Can you explain what is happening in the 5 bar Intro?

I do. Just wondering if you do.

And the next 16 bars that you are applying your 1-2-3 to is a standard 16 bar phrase, with 2 lots of 4 bars.

I think there is no doubt that the main theme starts in bar 6 and ends in bar 21. Berstein does not say anything contrary, he just explain that there is a thematic intro with a repated motives which then spins off the main theme.

BTW, i would not call it a melodic trick, but a structural one. There are cases where the intro uses motives from the main themes and other cases where it is completely different. Also the clasdical composers liked symetry so very often motives are repeated but i would not necessarily call it a 1,2,3. Even in the case of the 5th, it is debatable whether it should be viewed as a 1,2,3. I feel it more like a 1,2, the repeated motives are there essentially to solidify the intro and set the stage (something like the announcement before the curtain is removed and the play starts) rather than built a momentum. But i guess it is a personal assessment.

The Haffner is not using a 1,2,3. The intro is not symetrical and is in my view is a one piece cloth with 2 motives, of which part of the first theme.

Berstein liked to make it simple, so i guess as an example of one particular case it is fine.

The first five bars are not part of the main theme?

Structurally, no.

It was indeed a mistake. Being obtuse in a forum doesn't alter that.