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Bernstein blunder
#3000715 07/09/20 04:05 PM
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In one of Bernstein's "Young People's Concerts" lectures he describes the common 1-2-3 melodic trick utilized by composer throughout the ages. He falsely attributes this to the opening of Beethoven 5 to include the intro, surprisingly. The 1-2-3 technique begins after the 8-note intro. The 3 "takeoff" appears on the return to the tonic after the dominant. Somewhat amusing of a mistake to be made by the great Lenny Bernstein I think. grin

https://youtu.be/2AFovpvDRCI?t=558

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000721 07/09/20 04:17 PM
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Well... If you and Bernstein have different opinions, I would humbly suggest you check yours again.

Re: Bernstein blunder
Eric399 #3000725 07/09/20 04:27 PM
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There's nothing to check.

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000735 07/09/20 04:36 PM
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Good for you

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000738 07/09/20 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by chopinetto
In one of Bernstein's "Young People's Concerts" lectures he describes the common 1-2-3 melodic trick utilized by composer throughout the ages. He falsely attributes this to the opening of Beethoven 5 to include the intro, surprisingly. The 1-2-3 technique begins after the 8-note intro. The 3 "takeoff" appears on the return to the tonic after the dominant. Somewhat amusing of a mistake to be made by the great Lenny Bernstein I think. grin

https://youtu.be/2AFovpvDRCI?t=558

chopinetto:

I think you missed the point. This is what Bernstein was (very clearly) explaining with the Beethoven example.

Two fragments: 1) Ready, 2) Set, then the piece gets underway with 3) Go! His other examples suggested the same compositional technique.

[Linked Image]

No blunder on the maestro's point, I think.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000742 07/09/20 04:42 PM
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I think Bernstein's example in the Beethoven is fine.

Re: Bernstein blunder
BruceD #3000748 07/09/20 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by chopinetto
In one of Bernstein's "Young People's Concerts" lectures he describes the common 1-2-3 melodic trick utilized by composer throughout the ages. He falsely attributes this to the opening of Beethoven 5 to include the intro, surprisingly. The 1-2-3 technique begins after the 8-note intro. The 3 "takeoff" appears on the return to the tonic after the dominant. Somewhat amusing of a mistake to be made by the great Lenny Bernstein I think. grin

https://youtu.be/2AFovpvDRCI?t=558

chopinetto:

I think you missed the point. This is what Bernstein was (very clearly) explaining with the Beethoven example.

Two fragments: 1) Ready, 2) Set, then the piece gets underway with 3) Go! His other examples suggested the same compositional technique.

[Linked Image]

No blunder on the maestro's point, I think.

Regards,
I'm sorry, but that is incorrect. If you watch the lecture, he is breaking down a very specific kind of theme construction. In the Beethoven, the theme does not start until bar 6. The first five bars act as intro material preceding the theme.

[Linked Image]

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000790 07/09/20 06:32 PM
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I have never heard of this before. Can someone please explain this "melodic trick" to me or send me the link to the video in which it is explained? Thank you!

Re: Bernstein blunder
samwitdangol #3000794 07/09/20 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
I have never heard of this before. Can someone please explain this "melodic trick" to me or send me the link to the video in which it is explained? Thank you!
https://youtu.be/2AFovpvDRCI?t=474

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000810 07/09/20 07:41 PM
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I see nothing wrong with Bernstein's example.

Re: Bernstein blunder
samwitdangol #3000817 07/09/20 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
I see nothing wrong with Bernstein's example.
I would only be repeating myself now.

I thought this would be a no-brainer around here. Oops.

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000844 07/09/20 09:12 PM
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I believe you are correct and it's easy to see why. We can clearly see 1-2-3 idea once again after the introductory minor third at measure 24. Measure 25 and further follows with the same 1-2-3 idea as seen in measure 6. Therefore the introduction is not the main thematic material, at least not in the way that Bernstein is explaining it.

Last edited by achoo42; 07/09/20 09:14 PM.
Re: Bernstein blunder
achoo42 #3000845 07/09/20 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo42
I believe you are correct and it's easy to see why. We can clearly see 1-2-3 idea once again after the introductory minor third at measure 24. Measure 25 and further follows with the same 1-2-3 idea as seen in measure 6. Therefore the introduction is not the main thematic material, at least not in the way that Bernstein is explaining it.
Finally.

Re: Bernstein blunder
BruceD #3000917 07/10/20 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by chopinetto
In one of Bernstein's "Young People's Concerts" lectures he describes the common 1-2-3 melodic trick utilized by composer throughout the ages. He falsely attributes this to the opening of Beethoven 5 to include the intro, surprisingly. The 1-2-3 technique begins after the 8-note intro. The 3 "takeoff" appears on the return to the tonic after the dominant. Somewhat amusing of a mistake to be made by the great Lenny Bernstein I think. grin

https://youtu.be/2AFovpvDRCI?t=558

chopinetto:

I think you missed the point. This is what Bernstein was (very clearly) explaining with the Beethoven example.

Two fragments: 1) Ready, 2) Set, then the piece gets underway with 3) Go! His other examples suggested the same compositional technique.

[Linked Image]

No blunder on the maestro's point, I think.

Regards,
Agreed, BruceD. Clearly illustrated starting at 9:20. Sorry, I don't agree with you, chopinetto, but a big thanks for sharing the video.

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000920 07/10/20 03:22 AM
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I think Bernstein is quite clear about what he means. It's not a mistake. Being obnoxious to forum members doesn't alter that.

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000940 07/10/20 04:57 AM
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I also see nothing wrong with Bernstein's analysis.

Just dismissing the first 5 bars by stating that "The first five bars act as intro material preceding the theme." explains nothing.

It's just an intro? Can you explain what is happening in the 5 bar Intro?

I do. Just wondering if you do.

And the next 16 bars that you are applying your 1-2-3 to is a standard 16 bar phrase, with 2 lots of 4 bars.

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000945 07/10/20 05:21 AM
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I think there is no doubt that the main theme starts in bar 6 and ends in bar 21. Berstein does not say anything contrary, he just explain that there is a thematic intro with a repated motives which then spins off the main theme.

BTW, i would not call it a melodic trick, but a structural one. There are cases where the intro uses motives from the main themes and other cases where it is completely different. Also the clasdical composers liked symetry so very often motives are repeated but i would not necessarily call it a 1,2,3. Even in the case of the 5th, it is debatable whether it should be viewed as a 1,2,3. I feel it more like a 1,2, the repeated motives are there essentially to solidify the intro and set the stage (something like the announcement before the curtain is removed and the play starts) rather than built a momentum. But i guess it is a personal assessment.

The Haffner is not using a 1,2,3. The intro is not symetrical and is in my view is a one piece cloth with 2 motives, of which part of the first theme.

Berstein liked to make it simple, so i guess as an example of one particular case it is fine.

Re: Bernstein blunder
chopinetto #3000962 07/10/20 06:29 AM
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The first five bars are not part of the main theme?

Re: Bernstein blunder
samwitdangol #3001001 07/10/20 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
The first five bars are not part of the main theme?
Structurally, no.

Re: Bernstein blunder
johnstaf #3001002 07/10/20 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
I think Bernstein is quite clear about what he means. It's not a mistake. Being obnoxious to forum members doesn't alter that.
It was indeed a mistake. Being obtuse in a forum doesn't alter that.

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