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Price for new piano - is discount too much?
#3000498 07/09/20 05:35 AM
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Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum!
After 30+ years without a piano/playing, and our daughter just learning to play on a CASIO keyboard for over a year, we decided to buy a piano (and I am looking forward to get back into playing!). Initially we were looking for some cheap pianos over the internet, then realised that for a good piano we should need to spend more than £600....so ended up visiting a professional shop last week when the Covid-19 lock down finally eased, and totally fell in love for a Petrof upright.
Totally out of the budget we had originally thought but it has such an amazing sound!!
I am due to pay a deposit this week, but I have a pending question on the back of my mind and I thought of sharing it here. The dealer is offering us to buy for about 25% less than the 'recommended retail price' suggested by the manufacturer. And given that many sellers are marketing the same model even higher than this, the offer is pretty appealing.
The dealers are a family-run business, they were very trustworthy and kind, and are top rated nationwide....but isn't 25% discount -for a top range piano, brand new - too good to be true? Is it normal to get this kind of discounts in the piano market? Is there something I might forget to check/think of before buying?
Thanks in advance for any suggestion you might have.

_____
[Gebr. Zimmerman Leipzig from the early 1900s - now returning to music with a Petrof 131M]

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Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000500 07/09/20 05:48 AM
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I think I know which dealer you mean. I'd say they're trying to stimulate sales after lockdown, and there could be some other reasons. One reason they won't be discounting if it's who I think it is, is the quality of instrument and service they'll provide. 25% off is a generous discount but it's not unheard of, and it sounds like a good deal to me.

So it's a new piano at that price? It'll have a warranty from the manufacturer, and this dealer is well known for providing the highest level of service, there really isn't a downside to this.

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
Joseph Fleetwood #3000505 07/09/20 06:09 AM
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Hi Joseph, thanks for your quick reply, which I take it as positive. Yes, we are buying new.
But I am not sure what you mean with this: "One reason they won't be discounting if it's who I think it is, is the quality of instrument and service they'll provide" ?

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000522 07/09/20 07:43 AM
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If by "recommended retail price" you mean what's usually called the MSRP, then the offer could actually be a poor one. If piano prices in the UK work anything like in the U.S. then the MSRP has little meaning and can often be very inflated so customers with less than good understanding think they are getting a good buy.

The PIano Buyer explains all this in their section on MSRP and SMP. They explain that the "discount", whether offered or negotiated, should be considered in relation to the SMP which is often much lower than the MSRP. In the U.S. Fine says one should aim for a 10-30% discount from the SMP, which depending on the manufacturer could be a much higher discount off the MSRP.

Here is the article in the Piano Buyer you should carefully read. I'm not sure if these ideas apply outside the U.S. but my guess is they do. I think it's the actual figures for the MSRP an SMP that only apply to the U.S.
https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/about-piano-prices/

If you tell us the exact model you want to buy, it might help to decide if the deal you're getting is good.

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000538 07/09/20 08:33 AM
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Addendum to my last post. I checked the Piano Buyer SMPs and MSRPs for Petrof. Petrof is one of the brands where the MSRPs are very inflated compared to the SMPs. As I said previously, I don't know if this applies in the UK, but in the U.S. 25% off MSRP for Petrof would not be a good buy at all because the MSRPs are so much higher than the SMPs.

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000540 07/09/20 08:34 AM
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Assuming you're referring to the 131M shown in your signature, if you go to this page you will see 2 pricing columns: MSRP and SMP. In the US a good seat of the pants estimate for a fair price is 20% off the SMP price. In the case of the 131M1, the SMP is 28% lower than the MSRP, so you would expect to pay about 20% less than this price in the US. I've no idea how all this translates to the UK but to answer your question, it does not seem like you are getting a deal that's too good to be true.


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Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000544 07/09/20 08:41 AM
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Bottom line is that for Petrof, if the UK MSRPs are as inflated compared to the SMPs as they are for the U.S., and the OP was offered 25% off MSRP, then that is not a good price.

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
pianoloverus #3000546 07/09/20 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Bottom line is that for Petrof, if the UK MSRPs are as inflated compared to the SMPs as they are for the U.S., and the OP was offered 25% off MSRP, then that is not a good price.

Joseph Fleetwood who is well acquainted with U.K. pricing believed this is a great price. He’s not making an assumption of pricing in the U.K.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000550 07/09/20 08:56 AM
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From what I have read on this forum it is my understanding that the US pricing of new pianos is very much different from what we have in the UK and I would be inclined to go with what Joe Fleetwood has posted. If you would like a second opinion on the UK prices of Petrof pianos give Yorkshire pianos a telephone call.

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000555 07/09/20 09:07 AM
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I had a look at the MSRP and SMPs for the US market on the Piano Buyer website, as suggested by Pianoloverus and used a currency converter!
Goodness, how pricy these are compared to the UK!!!
I am not sure if these are due to Customs tax and transport costs or the manufacturer's choice for the US market, but the maximum I have seen the Petrof 131 M sold here is considerably lower.
Given I am paying £9k, if comparing with the prices on Piano Buyer, it seems I have been offered to buy this for less than one third of the MSRP price and less than half the SMPs price in the US (if I did the maths right).

It also seems that on various UK websites different dealers mention different 'recommended retail prices' but none seem to publish a fix price. If I take the highest I found, the discount is around 40%.

So, I think this is right...

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
dogperson #3000556 07/09/20 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Bottom line is that for Petrof, if the UK MSRPs are as inflated compared to the SMPs as they are for the U.S., and the OP was offered 25% off MSRP, then that is not a good price.

Joseph Fleetwood who is well acquainted with U.K. pricing believed this is a great price. He’s not making an assumption of pricing in the U.K.
Is he even aware of the ideas of SMP vs. MSRP? Are you aware of SMP and MSRP?

How many people does he know who have bought this particular model in the UK and how does he know how much they paid for it? Unless he is an industry insider in the UK, I don't see how he could judge what a good price is in the UK? It would surprise me if the MSRPs in the UK aren't sometimes very arbitrary and inflated as they are in the U.S.

Perhaps he can respond on this?

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000561 07/09/20 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ChiaraTor
I had a look at the MSRP and SMPs for the US market on the Piano Buyer website, as suggested by Pianoloverus and used a currency converter!
Goodness, how pricy these are compared to the UK!!!
I am not sure if these are due to Customs tax and transport costs or the manufacturer's choice for the US market, but the maximum I have seen the Petrof 131 M sold here is considerably lower.
Given I am paying £9k, if comparing with the prices on Piano Buyer, it seems I have been offered to buy this for less than one third of the MSRP price and less than half the SMPs price in the US (if I did the maths right).

It also seems that on various UK websites different dealers mention different 'recommended retail prices' but none seem to publish a fix price. If I take the highest I found, the discount is around 40%.

So, I think this is right...
To know if it's a good buy you need to know the what would be the SMP for the UK. The fact that you found so many different MSRPs shows how arbitrary the MSRP can be and/or that dealers are not being honest about quoting it. All my previous comments were made without having any idea of how much it would cost you. My main point is that using discount from MSRP can be very misleading.

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
keff #3000562 07/09/20 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by keff
From what I have read on this forum it is my understanding that the US pricing of new pianos is very much different from what we have in the UK and I would be inclined to go with what Joe Fleetwood has posted.

Hi Keff, yes, it really seems so...

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
pianoloverus #3000563 07/09/20 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Bottom line is that for Petrof, if the UK MSRPs are as inflated compared to the SMPs as they are for the U.S., and the OP was offered 25% off MSRP, then that is not a good price.

Joseph Fleetwood who is well acquainted with U.K. pricing believed this is a great price. He’s not making an assumption of pricing in the U.K.
Is he even aware of the ideas of SMP vs. MSRP? Are you aware of SMP and MSRP?

How many people does he know who have bought this particular model in the UK and how does he know how much they paid for it? Unless he is an industry insider in the UK, I don't see how he could judge what a good price is in the UK? It would surprise me if the MSRPs in the UK aren't sometimes very arbitrary and inflated as they are in the U.S.

Perhaps he can respond on this?

Yes, Joe can reply.
You’re questioning whether I know the difference in pricing is not only condescending but irrelevant if the same criteria is not used in the U.K.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000566 07/09/20 09:27 AM
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All this aside, a well-prepped Petrof 131 is quite a good vertical piano. I almost bought one many years ago.


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Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
pianoloverus #3000573 07/09/20 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Bottom line is that for Petrof, if the UK MSRPs are as inflated compared to the SMPs as they are for the U.S., and the OP was offered 25% off MSRP, then that is not a good price.

The bottom line really is that those pianobuyer prices based on SMP in America are pretty useless here for the UK. Yamaha prices seem vaguely comparable but the actual prices for Petrof, Kawai and German pianos in general seem a lot cheaper here. It's a real treat to see pianos cheaper here in the UK than in USA, for most things we pay a lot more.

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000574 07/09/20 09:45 AM
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In the absence of known MSRP and SMP in the UK, I would suggest the OP call around and visit some other stores that carry Petrof pianos and check their discount from retail. I don’t know how the piano business runs in the UK but typically here piano dealers will only give you prices when you are in their store so shopping and comparing prices involves far more leg work than comparing to a published price list. In the USA a new Petrof 131 that’s discounted 20% from SMP would cost $22,662 USD. I would expect Petrofs to be more expensive in the US due to shipping from the Czech Republic. Also, I have no idea how Brexit affects piano pricing in the UK. I’m certainly interested to know more so.... keep us informed on your pricing research and your shopping results. Best Wishes on your piano journey.

Last edited by j&j; 07/09/20 09:46 AM.

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Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000582 07/09/20 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ChiaraTor
I had a look at the MSRP and SMPs for the US market on the Piano Buyer website, as suggested by Pianoloverus and used a currency converter!
Goodness, how pricy these are compared to the UK!!!
I am not sure if these are due to Customs tax and transport costs or the manufacturer's choice for the US market, but the maximum I have seen the Petrof 131 M sold here is considerably lower.
Given I am paying £9k, if comparing with the prices on Piano Buyer, it seems I have been offered to buy this for less than one third of the MSRP price and less than half the SMPs price in the US (if I did the maths right).

It also seems that on various UK websites different dealers mention different 'recommended retail prices' but none seem to publish a fix price. If I take the highest I found, the discount is around 40%.

So, I think this is right...

Yes, that is a decent price you should be happy with.

That piano was on my shortlist recently and I was quoted £9.250 for the 131M.

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
gwing #3000583 07/09/20 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Bottom line is that for Petrof, if the UK MSRPs are as inflated compared to the SMPs as they are for the U.S., and the OP was offered 25% off MSRP, then that is not a good price.

The bottom line really is that those pianobuyer prices based on SMP in America are pretty useless here for the UK. Yamaha prices seem vaguely comparable but the actual prices for Petrof, Kawai and German pianos in general seem a lot cheaper here. It's a real treat to see pianos cheaper here in the UK than in USA, for most things we pay a lot more.
The specific SMP and MSRP prices may be useless but that doesn't mean the concept of SMP and MSRP is useless. If the concept is still relevant than an offered discount from MSRP is useless to determine if the price is good.

Re: Price for new piano - is discount too much?
ChiaraTor #3000605 07/09/20 10:58 AM
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My understanding is that advertised “retail” prices in Europe tend to be lower than in the US because culturally there is less haggling over purchase price, so there is less “wiggle room” built into the retail price.

The PianoBuyer’s numbers are relevant only to the US market. I’ve even been chastised here in the past for mentioning the PB in a discussion about the two markets, because it’s “US only.”

Petrof in particular has been discussed here on numerous occasions for having MSRP and SMP that are ridiculously high in the US relative to European sales prices. And it’s been pointed out that you can buy one for retail in Europe, ship it to the US yourself and save oodles of money over SMP (if a Petrof is what you want).

To be fair, it’s also been suggested that one can find screamin’ deals on Petrofs in the U.S. that beat the SMP model’s 30% “good deal”.

The concept of buying for less than retail is relevant everywhere, but to varying extents. Dramatic discounts and “always on sale” is more an American thing though.

TL;DR: U.S. MSRP & SMP are not relevant in the U.K., esp. re. Petrof.



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