2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
88 members (accordeur, BeWood, Beemer, 36251, BachToTheFuture, 1957, Almar, Anjru, 17 invisible), 640 guests, and 556 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
#2999449 07/06/20 12:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
If you've followed some of my endeavors on this forum, you probably know about CyberGene's DIY hybrid MIDI controller. Sleutelbos suggested the name Cybrid and I liked it smile

Basically I created a MIDI controller from an old grand piano action by putting optical sensors that detect velocity of the hammer shanks.

After some considerations I decided to make it open-source and free for people to contribute. Here it is:
Cybrid on GitHub

I started publishing it 3 months ago but I am always lazy and slow writing technical docs, so at the suggestion of others, I decided to just publish the current state of the project with some section of the main description still in progress. The readme.md that contains the description is too rushed and probably inconsistent and full of typos or even wrong information. But the code and the PCB design is there.

I can answer questions and will allow for interested smart-heads to be contributors.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
(ad)
Sweetwater Gifts That Rock
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999451 07/06/20 12:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 610
Tyr Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 610
Thanks. Now i need to find the parts to make a Tybrid. laugh


Kawai Novus NV5 | Yamaha P-115
Pianoteq 7 Pro | Garritan CFX Full | Minigrand | VI Labs: Ravenscroft 275 - Modern U
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999452 07/06/20 12:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,075
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,075
CG, very good, even for a work in progress page. Kudos to you.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999475 07/06/20 01:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 391
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 391
well done! congratulations from us!

Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999481 07/06/20 02:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 809
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 809
Cybrid is great achievement for sure. Well above what I would ever try.
Let's hope somebody gets their feet wet in there; this would be the best way to find ommissions or ambiguities in the project docs.


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
Adult beginner
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999488 07/06/20 02:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 863
N
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 863
Impressive work and nice write up. I enjoyed the pics!

I tried to implement Cybrid based on your template and using your code, but the high 3 keys after A7 are not working on mine. Any idea what may be wrong?

๐Ÿ˜…

Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999489 07/06/20 02:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,688
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,688
Thanks CyberGene - this was a fun ride!

Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999554 07/06/20 05:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 70
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 70
Wow. Gonna have a lot to review.... Thanks for this.


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
Play it as a VI HERE
Yamaha PF85, Formerly Kawai KG-1D
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999571 07/06/20 06:06 PM
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 299
D
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
D
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 299
I was very impressed before, and I am even more now that I've seen the additional details. My jaws dropped to the floor, broke it and fell at the bottom of the crawling space. This is way more hardware design work than I had anticipated, and I am astonished by how much you have accomplished, starting from zero in such a short time, while having a full time job and a family!

Thanks for sharing!

Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999594 07/06/20 06:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,710
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,710
This is amazing. Thank you so much for this.

I am thinking of having a go. I can see some problems adapting this to my piano, but such problems are insignificant compared to making the impossible possible, as you have done.

๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999600 07/06/20 07:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,140
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,140
Kudos CG, excellent work!


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999601 07/06/20 07:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,934
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,934
I see that you use reflective optical sensors. What characteristic of the moving hammers are you detecting with those sensors?

Your readme in git says that "the phototransistor will change its collector current depending on the proximity of subjects to the sensor".

So is it proximity? Or reflected light? If the latter, how is it working properly when the action is open to varying ambient light (as seen your video), rather than tucked away inside the dark innards of a piano?

Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999635 07/06/20 08:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 83
V
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 83
CG: Thank you for your generosity. I antecipate that many clones will appear in the immediate future (and many old actions will get a second fruitful life...).

Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
MacMacMac #2999709 07/07/20 12:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 374
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 374
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I see that you use reflective optical sensors. What characteristic of the moving hammers are you detecting with those sensors?

Your readme in git says that "the phototransistor will change its collector current depending on the proximity of subjects to the sensor".

So is it proximity? Or reflected light? If the latter, how is it working properly when the action is open to varying ambient light (as seen your video), rather than tucked away inside the dark innards of a piano?

CyberGene will be able to answer this more properly, but as far as I know, those sensors have a some kind of light filter which works quite well, and are not afected by ambient light (I don't know if direct sunnlight can bother them...)


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999724 07/07/20 02:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
The CNY70 uses its own infrared emitter and the phototransistor is sensitive to 950nm light, i.e. to its emitter and the daylight won't affect it. So, it's a proximity sensor that uses its own reflected light to detect proximity. I've been using my controller without any cabinet in daylight and it hasn't been affected

Last edited by CyberGene; 07/07/20 02:24 AM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #2999740 07/07/20 03:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,934
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,934
OK, that explains it. One more question: How are the sensors situated with respect to the action? Do the sensors "see" the hammer heads? The shanks? Or something else?

It was not clear from the photos I looked at.

Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
MacMacMac #2999743 07/07/20 04:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
OK, that explains it. One more question: How are the sensors situated with respect to the action? Do the sensors "see" the hammer heads? The shanks? Or something else?

It was not clear from the photos I looked at.

Sensors are above the bases of the hammer shanks, close to the pin.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #3004602 07/20/20 05:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 83
V
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 83
Hi CG... Couple of technical questions regarding Cybrid (and small bump to the thread ๐Ÿ˜Š) :

1. Any particular reason for not using Teensy 4.1? (probably not yet available when you started the project). It has a MUCH faster clock, although I am not completely sure if the faster speed affects only internal computations or if it also increases the IO cycle rate (it should...). The overall pinout remains the same (it even has 2 more pins easily accessible).

2. I cannot see in your code an implemmentation for key-off speed release. I assume that this cannot be calculated using only 3 trimpots (note off is the time at which sensor 3 changes state, irrelevant of time between 2 and 3, correct?). If so, then note off requires an additional sensor 4 well above escapement in order to calculate a speed. Which brings me back to the first point: teensy 4.1 may provide the speed necessary for an additional trimpot in the scanning cycle. I have not checked what are the hardware consequences of this change (I assume that 42 IO pins are enough for everything, but the voltage comparators and multiplexes need to change from 3:1 to 4:1... And the IDC probably needs to jump from IDC34 to IDC50 with very wide ribbon cabling...)

Am I thinking correctly? Is speed of note-off overkill? Maybe only Pianoteq will be able to fully use the note-off speed? Moreover, you don't need this to signal silent undamped keys, although again I don't think silent undampening is implemented in MIDI references...

Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #3004620 07/20/20 06:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,430
^ To answer your questions:

At the time Teensy 3.6 was the latest one. 4.0 was later announced but it was not pin compatible. However 4.1 is pin compatible and I received one on Friday, however it turned out it has no pins soldered. I didnโ€™t have long enough pin socket remaining to solder both sides and the nearest electronics store was closed due to COVID and Iโ€™m currently on vacation, so will finish it next week and post an update on the scanning speed improvements.

You are correct, note off velocity is not compatible with the three sensor point implementation. This is the same as NV10 which is why the Kawai doesnโ€™t support note off velocity either. If Iโ€™m to put four points, Iโ€™d prefer an approach with two points at hammer and two points at keys for much more consistent damper detection behavior.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Cybrid (CyberGene's hybrid MIDI controller) is open-source!
CyberGene #3004660 07/20/20 08:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 83
V
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
V
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 83
Thanks for the quick reply.

You are always one step ahead of everybody else... Let us know if the teensy 4.1 improves cycle efficacy. And I fully agree with simultaneous detection of hammer movement and initial key displacement (you may even use the key sensor information to "jump over" some note groups and not scan the hammer sensors if in that group of 5 keys all of them are at resting position, and shave a few cycles - unless the "if" commands generate more lag than straightforward dumps).

Wow: the NV10 does not have note-off velocity???? A real grand action with real dampening hardware, but without its digital implemmentation? Are all Kawai keyboards the same? From ES110, MP11 through NV10 (the only models for which I checked the manuals) the MIDI chart state that there is velocity in both note-on and note-off.

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Mason & Hamlin Rebuild Requirements
by brdwyguy - 01/18/21 09:49 AM
Do you normally ask dealer to tune piano?
by tony3304 - 01/18/21 07:25 AM
iPad pro (2020) MIDI Output not consistent
by Almar - 01/18/21 05:33 AM
used Kawai RX-1 or new Kawai GL-30?
by Guido, Roma - Italy - 01/18/21 05:23 AM
Roland F701 vs FP-90X (?)
by Mulberg - 01/18/21 02:17 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,353
Posts3,048,341
Members100,102
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4