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Help! Headphone volume problem.
#2999609 07/06/20 08:21 PM
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I’m just wondering if anyone here have experience with Philips SHP9500 headphones on a Kawai CA48, this is exactly what I have and I find the volume not big enough.

Normally, I’d practice with onboard speakers at around 50-60% volume, which is quite sufficient for my hearing. But it can be very disturbing for the little one when he’s doing homework, so I decided to use headphones when needed.

However, It’s so strange that when I plug in the headphones, I would need to crank the volume to about 9/10 to get same/similar sound for the same default Sk-Ex piano tone, and the headphone settings I’ve been using is “spatial normal and phone type open”. I’ve tried other settings as well, all similar results, just some changes in sound stage.

I don’t have a whole lot of experience in terms of audiophile or anything Hi-Fi, just trying to get a pair of cans that would do the job, but this pair apparently failed miserably.

Before purchasing the headphones, I’ve done some research, and heard a lot of good things about them, which makes me wonder, did I do anything wrong? Maybe I messed up some settings? I purposely chose them because they are just 32ohm, and should be very easy to drive without an amplifier, but it seems not the case.

Full disclosure, I’m no audiophile type of listener, and the best headphone I have had are a pair of Sony MDR1ADAC, which I use directly with my iPhone for casual listening. And I’m a beginner in playing piano as well, by that I mean really just a beginner, started learning 6 months ago, and the best I can do is Bach prelude in C major without wrong notes with no dynamics. But I figure it doesn’t require audio expertise or piano playing skills to judge headphone volume, or does it?

This forum has been extremely helpful, and I appreciate all the input you may have. If this is something that I would not find any solutions, then would you guys recommend an other pair of headphones, please? Anything below $100 would fit my budget. Thank you so much!

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #2999625 07/06/20 08:57 PM
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Hello Eugene911,

I'm afraid I don't have any direct experience with Philips SHP9500 headphones. However, the brand is reputable, so I'm confident that they are good quality.

I don't think it's necessarily a problem if you feel the need to increase the volume level when using your Philips headphones. It's also not uncommon for there to be a different in perceived volume between speaker sound and headphone sound at the same volume slider position.

May I ask if you've tried connecting your Sony headphones to the CA48? If so, how is the volume?

Kind regards,
James
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Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #2999628 07/06/20 09:05 PM
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You say you have to set the volume to 9 out of 10. Is that volume loud enough? If it is, there's no problem. The volume goes to 10 so that you can use it at 10.
Having said that, those headphones are quite sensitive, so yes, I am surprised you have to turn it up that much. Are they loud enough with a smartphone, just out of curiousity?

Looking at the CA48 manual, I see there is a "phones" setting, to adjust for different types of headphones, but that appears to be for sound character - not volume. Might be worth trying it though.

Edit: I posted this before seeing James' reply - bit of overlap.

Greg

Last edited by sullivang; 07/06/20 09:07 PM.
Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Kawai James #2999634 07/06/20 09:21 PM
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Hi KJ, thanks for the reply. I’m not doubting my CA48 or the headphones, just wondering if there’s some settings that I didn’t get right. And yes, I have tried my Sony ones on the piano, they work as they should, but there’s a twist, and that’s also the reason I’m not using the Sony on the piano. There’s a “DAC” in the mode name, so you may have guessed that there’s a built in DAC on the headphones, to utilize that, I could only plug in something USB or lightening. If I were to use the Sony with 3.5 jack, DAC won’t work, and the sound quality is...let’s say, subpar.

With that said, the volume seems normal on the Sony, 50-60% would be loud enough, but again, the sound quality... If I had to choose between the Sony and disturbing my son, I’d rather choose the latter.

Also, I find it interesting that you mentioned perceived volume, would that be the reason? Maybe because my ears are not responding to the headphones that well? Now I started to question myself...wish me luck, not to follow the Beethoven route in terms of hearing:)

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Eugene911,

I'm afraid I don't have any direct experience with Philips SHP9500 headphones. However, the brand is reputable, so I'm confident that they are good quality.

I don't think it's necessarily a problem if you feel the need to increase the volume level when using your Philips headphones. It's also not uncommon for there to be a different in perceived volume between speaker sound and headphone sound at the same volume slider position.

May I ask if you've tried connecting your Sony headphones to the CA48? If so, how is the volume?

Kind regards,
James
x

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
sullivang #2999637 07/06/20 09:30 PM
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Hi Greg, thanks for your input. Yes, when I turn the volume to 9 our of 10, I’d say it’s loud enough, but again, I take the 50-60% volume on internal speakers loud enough. Such a dramatic volume setting change confused me. In theory, that’s not a problem, but I heard that there might be distortion if we were to max out the piano volume.

I have not tried the philips on my cellphone, because I lost the lightening-3.5 converter, which sucks. And I hate spending $10 just for that little thing. Plus since I have the Sony, which comes with a lightening cable, never bothered to go get a converter.

In terms of piano settings, that’s the one thing I’m not 100% sure, but like I said, been messing around all sort of settings, but nothing changes the volume that much, they are more of sound stage and reverbs.

Originally Posted by sullivang
You say you have to set the volume to 9 out of 10. Is that volume loud enough? If it is, there's no problem. The volume goes to 10 so that you can use it at 10.
Having said that, those headphones are quite sensitive, so yes, I am surprised you have to turn it up that much. Are they loud enough with a smartphone, just out of curiousity?

Looking at the CA48 manual, I see there is a "phones" setting, to adjust for different types of headphones, but that appears to be for sound character - not volume. Might be worth trying it though.

Edit: I posted this before seeing James' reply - bit of overlap.

Greg

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #2999642 07/06/20 09:47 PM
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Thank you for your additional reply Eugene911,

I say "perceived volume" because these things are relative - what sounds loud to you, may not sound loud to someone else or vice versa. I don't have immediate access to a CA48, however I don't recall reading reports of weak headphone output in the past, so believe the instrument itself should be fine.

Some Kawai instruments offer the ability to set the headphone volume between "Normal" and "High", however this is unfortunately not available on the CA48. Therefore, I don't think any of the settings you chose will dramatically affect the volume of the headphone sound.

I'm curious about your Sony headphones. Presumably when connected via USB or lightning the audio is sent digitally, and then decoded to analogue within the headphones themselves. However, regardless of where the decoding takes place, it should still be possible for the headphones to sound good when connected via 3.5mm.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #2999651 07/06/20 10:07 PM
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Just btw, one reason that low impedance headphones (e.g 32 ohm) MIGHT not sound all that loud with the CA48 could be if it has quite a high output impedance, which would of course drop the signal level, compared to what it would be if the headphones had a high impedance.

Btw - those Philips are pretty decent headphones, going by reviews.

Greg

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #2999653 07/06/20 10:11 PM
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Could be piano output power (40W) in combination with headphones sensitivity / impendence characteristics that give this result.
In short, some headphones sound quieter than other with equipment you have.


Roland HP-507RW | Yamaha U1 | Roland FP-90
Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #2999712 07/07/20 01:43 AM
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Quote
. . . In theory, that’s not a problem, but I heard that there might be distortion if we were to max out the piano volume. . . .

If there's overload distortion, you'll hear it. If you don't hear it, keep the volume set high.


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Kawai James #2999907 07/07/20 01:27 PM
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I think the perceived volume kind of makes sense, I’ll definitely try the headphones more, and see if it’s my false expectation in terms of speaker volume and headphone volume.

In terms of the Sony, I really hoped that the sound quality could be acceptable, but when using the 3.5 jack, it’s really not. Otherwise I wouldn’t be spending extra to get another set of headphones. They sound so muddy with digital piano, and sound stage is almost non existence since they are closed back. Even a non hifi person like me would not use them.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Thank you for your additional reply Eugene911,

I say "perceived volume" because these things are relative - what sounds loud to you, may not sound loud to someone else or vice versa. I don't have immediate access to a CA48, however I don't recall reading reports of weak headphone output in the past, so believe the instrument itself should be fine.

Some Kawai instruments offer the ability to set the headphone volume between "Normal" and "High", however this is unfortunately not available on the CA48. Therefore, I don't think any of the settings you chose will dramatically affect the volume of the headphone sound.

I'm curious about your Sony headphones. Presumably when connected via USB or lightning the audio is sent digitally, and then decoded to analogue within the headphones themselves. However, regardless of where the decoding takes place, it should still be possible for the headphones to sound good when connected via 3.5mm.

Kind regards,
James
x

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
sullivang #2999913 07/07/20 01:42 PM
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Thanks, Greg. I’ve done some research, it seems impossible to find the output impedance on my CA48, came across a thread that someone asked Kawai the question for CN37 and CA65, and the answer was 50-100 ohm, which is not THAT high, but if the number is on the higher end, then definitely not ideal - almost tripled.

In terms of the reviews, they are the reasons why I bought these, and it seems a lot of people have had very positive experience with these on their DPs. That makes me even more confused.

Originally Posted by sullivang
Just btw, one reason that low impedance headphones (e.g 32 ohm) MIGHT not sound all that loud with the CA48 could be if it has quite a high output impedance, which would of course drop the signal level, compared to what it would be if the headphones had a high impedance.

Btw - those Philips are pretty decent headphones, going by reviews.

Greg

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
personne #2999914 07/07/20 01:46 PM
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Thank you, you and Greg made the same point. And if that’s the point, would I be better off with a set of 100 ohm headphones? Because sounds to me the best result would come with matching output and input impedance.

Originally Posted by personne
Could be piano output power (40W) in combination with headphones sensitivity / impendence characteristics that give this result.
In short, some headphones sound quieter than other with equipment you have.

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Charles Cohen #2999916 07/07/20 01:48 PM
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I guess for now to crank up volume would be my only solution. Hopefully I’m not the only person on the forum to practice with maxed out volume, doable but sooooo strange.

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Quote
. . . In theory, that’s not a problem, but I heard that there might be distortion if we were to max out the piano volume. . . .

If there's overload distortion, you'll hear it. If you don't hear it, keep the volume set high.

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #2999923 07/07/20 02:11 PM
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Something to add, based on reviews, the Philips headphones should have a so-so bass and sparkly treble, if not too harsh. but in my case, it’s completely opposite.

When using pedal, the damper resonance is far more difficult to hear than onboard speakers, there’s a huge lost of “color” in the tone. E.g. I tried playing river flows in you one octave above, and all I got was some ... treble, overtones were almost non existed.

But weirdly, the bass keeps bombing my head like crazy. E.g. Chopin waltz A minor, the first low A note with pedal was like a bang on my head. Forgive my skills, I’m a complete beginner not knowing how to do dynamics, yet. But even then, still...weird.

For this entire thread I’ve been saying that I’m confused, because I really am.

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #2999959 07/07/20 03:52 PM
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Try another set of headphones... like earbuds or whatever you have around. You may need an adapter plug. I think the issue is a mismatch between those phones and the headphone amp in the unit. These headphone amplifiers in keyboards are usually not very good and cheap... that means they may not drive difficult loads well and just don't sound all that great.

If you plug in some earbuds and the volume goes up.... you most likely have a mismatch. You have two choices... 1) get another set of headphones that have higher sensitivity (plays louder for a given input) and or are easier to drive, or 2) use an outboard headphone amp attached to some line-out jacks on your board. You can get a decent headphone amp for under $100.

BTW, using good headphones with an outboard amp usually results in pretty darn good sound.
BTW2: expensive headphone amps are expensive (at least one reason) as they can drive difficult headphones.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 07/07/20 03:57 PM.

Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #3000108 07/08/20 02:56 AM
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I have a different view of this to Bruce. It is entirely normal for different headphones to have wildly different volumes, at any given setting of the volume control, and I don't consider that to be an indication of a "mismatch".

If you are getting sufficient volume, and there's no distortion, then you simply don't have a problem with volume. (as Charles said).

If you're not entirely happy with the sound tonality, though, then YES - try different headphones, or adjust the piano settings etc etc.

Aside from dropping the signal level, the output impedance may also interact with the low impedance of the headphones to change the *tonality*, and if you wanted to try and amp, you would only need an amp with a low output impedance - NOT a high output level. One of the small battery powered FiiO amps would be suitable IMHO. It would be interesting to see whether it made a difference. (this is something Bruce was getting at too, I guess)

Greg

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #3000258 07/08/20 12:44 PM
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Greg, you are correct... if the sound is fine, then who cares? All is good.

I made an assumption.... if a pair of earbuds plays louder, and these are designed to be driven by super cheap amps, then there will probably be sound quality issues too. Amps that run out of steam don't produce the highest fidelity possible with a given headphone. Again, an assumption.

Over the years, I try to avoid all problems by throwing some money at the technology.... and this approach generally works. Using an out-board headphone amp for one. I use an old Grado amp. Using an expensive headphone with a cheapie amp in our boards can get one into trouble either that the amp won't drive the phones well, or you will now hear hidden flaws. Folks get into trouble when they skimp..... just the way the universe works.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 07/08/20 12:48 PM.

Peace
Bruce in Philly
Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Bruce In Philly #3000284 07/08/20 01:57 PM
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New day, new attempt. Tried to clear my mind as much as possible and listened to all the details carefully.

Now I have to confess, it’s probably my numb ears that were spoiled over the years with the Sony headphones. Before yesterday, I had no idea how much those Sony cost, because I got them as a gift 4 years ago. Now that I’m aware that they are in the same price range as the Sennheiser HD600, things started to make sense. After all, you get what you pay for.

I went through a whole bunch of boxes in our storage closet and was able to find a lightening-3.5 converter in my wife’s iphone7 box from way back, tried to compare the Sony and Philips on my phone with some high quality MP3s. From there, things started to come together, I heard all typical Sony and Philips characteristics. To put things in perspective, compare to the Sony, there’s almost no bass on the Philips. And I heard the crispy, sometimes too harsh treble on the Philips as well. Sound stage wise, P wins, after all, it’s an open-back. But to my surprise, not a heaven-earth winning. Apparently, those reviews were not lies, but they were not 100% accurate, either. You never compare a $60 pair of headphones with a $240 pair, just not in the same league.

Now to plug them both onto the piano, that’s where the Philips actually performed better, guess it’s was because of the flat response and wider soundstage, the Sony has too much “sauce” in it, with which the organic tone color was 90% ruined. And without the internal DAC/AMP, I’d say the Sony worth about $60 or less. Don’t get me wrong, they are excellent with my phone, at least for casual listening, plus I don’t need that dangling, non color matched, white converter, which is a huge plus.

The most important issue, volume. Kudos to Kawai James, it was indeed my perceived volume. A little background, I live in a townhouse, and I have an 8 year old, who does homework every evening after dinner. When practicing, the volume of the onboard speakers that I WAS “satisfied” with, was indeed NOT loud enough due to the fact that I was not intended to disturb the neighbors and my son.

Got the Philips 2 days ago, and all I did for testing was to plug them in and start playing. When I got something new, especially this time I have paid for it, I tend to get a little too excited, and my expectations were sky rocketed, which lead me to think that the Philips failed. They were actually decent, for the price. I tried this morning to compare volume on Philips and the speakers by plugin and unplug, the volume on both were kind of similar, no complains there anymore. Just an interesting find that human perception/false expectation could play such an important role in experiencing something.

Verdict: the Philips are solid, and let’s say decent for its price. But my statement of “losing color” on the treble register stays the same. A lot of people on this forum say that a good pair of headphones will unleash the potential of a DP, which is potentially true, but not in my case. I still prefer the sound of the internal speakers. With that said, I could imagine a real good pair, like maybe more than $300 worth of good, would actually sound better than the speakers.

Going forward, I think I’d keep the Philips for a while, and as my playing skills enhancing, I may have to invest a good $300-400 for a real solid pair of headphones to “unleash the CA48’s potential”

Again, thank you all for your help, and I wish you all the best!




Originally Posted by sullivang
I have a different view of this to Bruce. It is entirely normal for different headphones to have wildly different volumes, at any given setting of the volume control, and I don't consider that to be an indication of a "mismatch".

If you are getting sufficient volume, and there's no distortion, then you simply don't have a problem with volume. (as Charles said).

If you're not entirely happy with the sound tonality, though, then YES - try different headphones, or adjust the piano settings etc etc.

Aside from dropping the signal level, the output impedance may also interact with the low impedance of the headphones to change the *tonality*, and if you wanted to try and amp, you would only need an amp with a low output impedance - NOT a high output level. One of the small battery powered FiiO amps would be suitable IMHO. It would be interesting to see whether it made a difference. (this is something Bruce was getting at too, I guess)

Greg
Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
Greg, you are correct... if the sound is fine, then who cares? All is good.

I made an assumption.... if a pair of earbuds plays louder, and these are designed to be driven by super cheap amps, then there will probably be sound quality issues too. Amps that run out of steam don't produce the highest fidelity possible with a given headphone. Again, an assumption.

Over the years, I try to avoid all problems by throwing some money at the technology.... and this approach generally works. Using an out-board headphone amp for one. I use an old Grado amp. Using an expensive headphone with a cheapie amp in our boards can get one into trouble either that the amp won't drive the phones well, or you will now hear hidden flaws. Folks get into trouble when they skimp..... just the way the universe works.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #3000295 07/08/20 02:36 PM
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Eugene: I'm glad you have made good progress.

Again - you may notice an improvement in sound with the Philips, if you use even a very cheap headphone amp, that has a low output impedance. (circa 5 ohms or less - the less, the better).
Now that you have a Lightning converter, you could transfer a recording of the CA48 over to the phone, and compare the difference - the Lightning adaptor does have a low output impedance.
Take care to match the volume levels as closely as possible, because volume has an effect on perceived tone colour, as I think you've acknowledged. If the phone sounds better, that's a sign that the amp would help.

Just btw, after poking around at reviews and measurements of the Lightning adaptor, I think it is excellent - I would not hesitate to use it with sensitive headphones. (it doesn't put out enough voltage for many high impedance headphones)

I agree - I wouldn't judge the Sony's by their "passive" (analog) behaviour.

Greg

Last edited by sullivang; 07/08/20 02:45 PM.
Re: Help! Headphone volume problem.
Eugene911 #3000311 07/08/20 03:15 PM
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Besides all what have been said here so far, I just want to add that, while it's clearly not a problem at all, it's also true the CA48 headphone amp is weak, it's like the one on a mobile phone. Therefore low impedance headphones, like 32 ohm, are the way to go. For anything above 55 ohm we'd need to add an external headphone amp.

Another thing: Digital piano headphones are better flat and especially with Kawai sounds, that are more mellow. All those bass enhanced headphones are going to make the lower registers more prominent but, more importantly, also more muddy, so the result is an overall less clear sound.

Last edited by ECBetancor; 07/08/20 03:18 PM.

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