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AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
#2999496 07/06/20 04:06 PM
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I created this to scale comparison of the scale design differences between the August Forster 215 (7' 2") and the Schimmel c213 (7') when I bought my AF - I found it quite interesting.






[Linked Image]


August Förster 215
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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999510 07/06/20 05:06 PM
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The #1 string length is not the only determinant of a good bass tone. It has been argued by some designers on this forum that a longer back scale and not as long of a bass string speaking length can perform better. Also, you can see that the overstringing angle of the Schimmel seems sharper than the Förster, which also changes the string length as you've tried to express it in the picture.

I don't wish to diminish the excitement you have over your piano, which is definitely well deserved (I was impressed both times I've run across an AF 215), but I just wanted to poke a couple of holes in some rather old-school marketing that I've seen once or twice before with pianos at just about any price point.


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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
terminaldegree #2999565 07/06/20 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
The #1 string length is not the only determinant of a good bass tone. It has been argued by some designers on this forum that a longer back scale and not as long of a bass string speaking length can perform better. Also, you can see that the overstringing angle of the Schimmel seems sharper than the Förster, which also changes the string length as you've tried to express it in the picture.

I don't wish to diminish the excitement you have over your piano, which is definitely well deserved (I was impressed both times I've run across an AF 215), but I just wanted to poke a couple of holes in some rather old-school marketing that I've seen once or twice before with pianos at just about any price point.

In the particular case of the cc213 Schimmel I owned and the AF215 I now own, the bass performance of the AF215 is considerably better in the same room in regard to clarity, quality and output with an additional 1/2 octave bass extension. With the AF215, I came for the speaking length and stayed for the actual performance (lol) - whether the (considerable) bass performance increase is attributable to the increased speaking length or the floating section of the soundboard perhaps is subject to debate.

It would seem that longer strings do place the required strike point distance farther from the player, requiring longer key sticks which is considered desirable.

To your point, I wonder why Schimmel left the plate empty behind the hitch pins when they could have increased the back scale by extending them to near the rim as AF does - as it stands the backscale of the Schimmel and AF are the same. Giving the bridge more flexibility from a longer back scale is always desirable isn't it?

Last edited by blueviewlaguna.; 07/06/20 06:59 PM.

August Förster 215
Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999604 07/06/20 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
longer back scale is always desirable isn't it?

I don't know. I'm not a piano designer. "Always desirable" is something I'm typically skeptical of, all I care about is how the finished product performs. Also "1/2 octave bass extension" doesn't mean anything specific to me.

Again, not doubting that you like your AF 215 better than a previous model cc213, or current version C 213. I'd expect it to be better, for the price.

What I mean here, is you can cherry pick one design element and pretty much find it in both high end and low end pianos, which obviously do not share the same level of performance.


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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999617 07/06/20 08:30 PM
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A longer backscale means that isn't as much uneven pressure, or downbearing on the bass bridge itself. If the angle on the back of the bridge (beyond the speaking length) is too steep there is a possibility that it could impede the function of the bridge. This is important because the bridge acts as a transducer. It moves vibrations from the string into the board itself.

If we are dealing with a cantilevered bridge, the effect could be more pronounced. I am pretty sure the cc213 was not a cantilevered bridge, but that is an old enough model that I could be wrong. I also do not know the design of the AF215.

In any case, I respect both pianos. Congrats on the new one.

My 2 cents,


Rich Galassini
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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999630 07/06/20 09:06 PM
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I prefer the Sauter Ambience or perhaps the Omega.......I could not resist.....August Forster, Schimmel also great....

.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/06/20 09:07 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
Rich Galassini #2999636 07/06/20 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
If we are dealing with a cantilevered bridge, the effect could be more pronounced. I am pretty sure the cc213 was not a cantilevered bridge, but that is an old enough model that I could be wrong. I also do not know the design of the AF215.
You would know better than I, but it seems that most manufacturers use cantilevered bridges up through their 6 1/2 foot models, and regular bridges for 7 foot models and above (roughly). But that August Forster 215 seems to have the bridge so close to the rim that it would almost have to have a cantilevered bridge, no? Unless the aforementioned "floating section of the soundboard" radically changes the rules?


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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
Lady Bird #2999645 07/06/20 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I prefer the Sauter Ambience or perhaps the Omega.......I could not resist.....August Forster, Schimmel also great....

.

I played an Omega 220 in 2018 and it (although more refined) sounded too close to my Schimmel's thin treble for my taste, perhaps voicing could have changed that but I wasn't shopping seriously at the time.

All subjective of course - any Sauter is a fine choice and part of that lovely group of fine German pianos that I seem to be drawn to...


August Förster 215
Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
Wes Lachot #2999646 07/06/20 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Wes Lachot
Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
If we are dealing with a cantilevered bridge, the effect could be more pronounced. I am pretty sure the cc213 was not a cantilevered bridge, but that is an old enough model that I could be wrong. I also do not know the design of the AF215.
You would know better than I, but it seems that most manufacturers use cantilevered bridges up through their 6 1/2 foot models, and regular bridges for 7 foot models and above (roughly). But that August Forster 215 seems to have the bridge so close to the rim that it would almost have to have a cantilevered bridge, no? Unless the aforementioned "floating section of the soundboard" radically changes the rules?

It's direct, AF really pushed the envelope with some of the end of the bridge hanging over but the actual bridge pins are still directly above the soundboard mounting point. You can see the floating soundboard here as well.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by blueviewlaguna.; 07/06/20 09:59 PM.

August Förster 215
Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999659 07/06/20 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I prefer the Sauter Ambience or perhaps the Omega.......I could not resist.....August Forster, Schimmel also great....

.

I played an Omega 220 in 2018 and it (although more refined) sounded too close to my Schimmel's thin treble for my taste, perhaps voicing could have changed that but I wasn't shopping seriously at the time.

All subjective of course - any Sauter is a fine choice and part of that lovely group of fine German pianos that I seem to be drawn to...
Yes,It just show exactly that, subjectivity. The thing that draws me to Sauter is the richness of tone
even in their uprights.
Perhaps I have "Spaichingen Ears" ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/06/20 10:28 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999680 07/06/20 11:28 PM
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Lady Bird, you make a good point. Sometimes it's tricky because we're dealing with sample sizes of 1, or differing standards/amounts of dealer prep, or one's playing/hearing is different from the next person's, but sometimes a particular piano is just better than another.

Even after enough experiences playing a brand where you start to form an opinion of what you like or don't like, you'll run into an "outlier" of a piano that shatters what you thought was true.


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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
terminaldegree #2999710 07/07/20 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Lady Bird, you make a good point. Sometimes it's tricky because we're dealing with sample sizes of 1, or differing standards/amounts of dealer prep, or one's playing/hearing is different from the next person's, but sometimes a particular piano is just better than another.

Even after enough experiences playing a brand where you start to form an opinion of what you like or don't like, you'll run into an "outlier" of a piano that shatters what you thought was true.
I have played 3 different pianos of differing models of Sauter uprights that I did not like.One was
when I was buying my piano, another was a totally different model ,an expensive Maly.
Recently I played a similar model to mine which I did not like. None were really in tune.The first in 2018 was badly placed in the store and I feel could have been greatly improved and could have been much better.The second I played recently I just did not like at all. The Maly had a much smaller tonal pallette at 122 high but if tuned properly, and well prepared may have been nice. It did not sound as nice as the best 130 Sauter's that I tried here.The key length was also shorter.
I was the first customer of the big dealer here after they became authorized dealers of Sauter in Vancouver in 2018 that bought a Sauter piano.The two technicians had just returned from visiting the manufacturer in Germany ,actually immediately prepared my piano.I remember how inspired they were and how they took a few days to work on my piano.
Although I have made use of the warranty for a few unimportant (non musical ) issues which worked out fine this piano is the one that inspires me.
There are a few others that I have played here and in Europe which I have also loved.
I cannot say that anything I have played shatters my opinion of Sauter. As you say these
are all samples of a brand.I did not really like the Schimmel 120 Classic series I tried and nor do I like any Petrof upright I have tried.The 46" Bluthner was not as exciting I thought it would be -- but as you say these are samples.
I once played a U3 which was ready for delivery, so fully prepped and it sounded not like any U3
I have ever heard ! It was more like a YUS5-- another sample.
So I am not sure what you mean by one piano you play will shatter ones opinion of a brand ?
It would be a sample --- right ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/07/20 01:36 AM. Reason: spelling
Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999718 07/07/20 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I prefer the Sauter Ambience or perhaps the Omega.......I could not resist.....August Forster, Schimmel also great....

.

I played an Omega 220 in 2018 and it (although more refined) sounded too close to my Schimmel's thin treble for my taste, perhaps voicing could have changed that but I wasn't shopping seriously at the time.

All subjective of course - any Sauter is a fine choice and part of that lovely group of fine German pianos that I seem to be drawn to...
A Sauter Omega is a very well appreciated semi concert grand . PLEASE have a look what Larry Fine writes about it in staff picks.It is one of the most prized of semi concert grands.But yes more
expensive than your Forster.
There is no such thing as a thin tone in that piano or any Sauter.Perhaps I need a bigger piano too !
Then I can start "downing" other pianos.Just ego !

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/07/20 02:50 AM. Reason: spelling
Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
Lady Bird #2999728 07/07/20 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I prefer the Sauter Ambience or perhaps the Omega.......I could not resist.....August Forster, Schimmel also great....

.

I played an Omega 220 in 2018 and it (although more refined) sounded too close to my Schimmel's thin treble for my taste, perhaps voicing could have changed that but I wasn't shopping seriously at the time.

All subjective of course - any Sauter is a fine choice and part of that lovely group of fine German pianos that I seem to be drawn to...
A Sauter Omega is a very well appreciated semi concert grand . PLEASE have a look what Larry Fine writes about it in staff picks.It is one of the most prized of semi concert grands.But yes more
expensive than your Forster.
There is no such thing as a thin tone in that piano or any Sauter.Perhaps I need a bigger piano too !
Then I can start "downing" other pianos.Just ego !

After playing the Omega 220, I felt it had a thin treble, this was my first-hand experience. I believe we've all read Larry Fine's books until they are dog-eared, but in the end one must play the piano to see whether it speaks to you. The Omega didn't for me. That's the beauty of pianos, still diverse enough offerings so that nearly everyone can find a match. In my case, it was the AF215.

Last edited by blueviewlaguna.; 07/07/20 03:40 AM.

August Förster 215
Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999747 07/07/20 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I prefer the Sauter Ambience or perhaps the Omega.......I could not resist.....August Forster, Schimmel also great....

.

I played an Omega 220 in 2018 and it (although more refined) sounded too close to my Schimmel's thin treble for my taste, perhaps voicing could have changed that but I wasn't shopping seriously at the time.

All subjective of course - any Sauter is a fine choice and part of that lovely group of fine German pianos that I seem to be drawn to...
A Sauter Omega is a very well appreciated semi concert grand . PLEASE have a look what Larry Fine writes about it in staff picks.It is one of the most prized of semi concert grands.But yes more
expensive than your Forster.
There is no such thing as a thin tone in that piano or any Sauter.Perhaps I need a bigger piano too !
Then I can start "downing" other pianos.Just ego !

After playing the Omega 220, I felt it had a thin treble, this was my first-hand experience. I believe we've all read Larry Fine's books until they are dog-eared, but in the end one must play the piano to see whether it speaks to you. The Omega didn't for me. That's the beauty of pianos, still diverse enough offerings so that nearly everyone can find a match. In my case, it was the AF215.
I think a little modesty would suit you better.
You are the only person who I have ever heard ever who said the Sauter Omega has a thin tone.This is the second thread where you are using marketing claims to back up how great a piano yours is over other pianos. Have we heard the two guys who bought a Fazioli or the other who bought a Bosendorfer downgrade other pianos just elevate his ? No we have not.
I can only think its buyers remorse ,and you are sorry you could not buy a Sauter Omega, or a Fazioli or a Bosendorfer or perhaps a bigger Schimmel.
It common for many to feel this for a while after spending a lot of cash on an expensive item.It is transient emotion they say and may be subconscious.
Enjoy your piano, for goodness go and play your new wonderful August Forster !
As you know terminaldegree is a performer, a piano professor and has a wonderful Schimmel grand.
And who told me his piano is amazing -- another performer Joseph Fleetwood ,also a performer and musical professional.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/07/20 05:48 AM. Reason: spelling
Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999800 07/07/20 09:22 AM
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As someone who has never tried an August Forester I really can’t compare. I have tried and played a few Schimmels (far too few in my opinion but I don’t live in Europe so there’s just too few to really say I know much about Schimmel pianos). I instantly loved the Konzert series. I only tried one or two Classic series but I much preferred the Konzerts. I would be interested in a scale design comparison of the Schimmel Classic and Schimmel Konzert. Or even your August Forester and a Schimmel Konzert. Did you try any Konzerts when trying your AF?


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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
Lady Bird #2999807 07/07/20 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
You are the only person who I have ever heard ever who said the Sauter Omega has a thin tone.This is the second thread where you are using marketing claims to back up how great a piano yours is over other pianos. Have we heard the two guys who bought a Fazioli or the other who bought a Bosendorfer downgrade other pianos just elevate his ? No we have not.
I can only think its buyers remorse ,and you are sorry you could not buy a Sauter Omega, or a Fazioli or a Bosendorfer or perhaps a bigger Schimmel.

You seem to be taking his difference of opinion rather personally. After all, when it comes to tonal preferences, it really is a matter of opinion. It is entirely possible that he actually does prefer the sound of his piano - after all, he did buy it. To try and claim that he must have buyer's remorse seems both unfair and unkind.


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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999821 07/07/20 10:16 AM
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I agree with Ladybird on this one, it almost seems that the OP is trying to convince himself that he bought the right piano.


When you play, never mind who listens to you. R.Schumann.

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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
blueviewlaguna. #2999822 07/07/20 10:17 AM
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I would think the OP has a strong preference for the new 7’ 2” August Forester piano that he/she/they just bought and is trying to show why they chose that brand and model. Whatever else they tried but didn’t fall in love with is just interesting info but of no consequence to other PW members. If you’ve been around long enough we know the old “my piano is better than yours” and some derivatives like, “I have more experience than you”, “European pianos are better than Japanese pianos”, “Kawai vs Yamaha” or even “upright vs grand” end up with hurt feelings and our Admins shutting down the thread.

Let’s just trade information respectfully and I will just enjoy the discussion about August Forester 215 grand’s.


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Re: AF215 vs. cc213 scale design
Learux #2999837 07/07/20 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Learux
I agree with Ladybird on this one, it almost seems that the OP is trying to convince himself that he bought the right piano.

Maybe, but there is nothing wrong with that. We all do it :-)

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