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Sensor controlled electromagnetic action
#2998779 07/04/20 05:58 PM
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Mikkel Offline OP
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In a recent thread I posted in the Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum, someone proposed the idea of simulating the action of a backcheck by using a magnet, and it got me thinking. But fearing to overwhelm the technicians section with off-topic subjects, I rather write it here.

Does anyone know, if sensor controlled electromagnets in DPs are a thing? Imagine a sensor controlling the current in an electromagnet facing the key and producing a complex touch according to an algorithm. A similar setup could be used to 'sample' the touch of specific instruments. One could have various default touch samples to choose on the same keys or manually adjust individual touch parameters to specific needs, and maybe the touch and sound could automatically calibrate eachother? Is this at all possible? Im a complete novice when it comes to electronics, so forgive me if I talk nonsense.

Mikkel

Re: Sensor controlled electromagnetic action
Mikkel #2998809 07/04/20 08:04 PM
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Google "haptic piano keyboard" for some ideas. It's not a simple project. And it's _really_ not simple to make one that's affordable.

As far as I know, researchers have done work with short keyboard sections, or individual keys. I don't think anyone has built an 88-key haptic piano action, yet.


. Charles
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Re: Sensor controlled electromagnetic action
Mikkel #2998835 07/04/20 09:28 PM
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I'm not understanding why you wish to simulate a backcheck.

The backcheck is partly responsible for improved repetition ... because it prevents the hammer from falling back to its rest position.
On a grand the "rep" portion of the action plays a (bigger?) role in this, IIRC.

If a digital piano has a grand action (NV10, N3, etc.) then the backcheck is already in there, doing it's job.
Likewise with an upright action (NV5, NU1X, etc).

So I presume this idea is intended for a digital piano that has no backcheck.
How would adding a backcheck help, regardless of whether it's a regular old-fashioned one or your newly proposed magneto-backcheck?

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're goal is.

Re: Sensor controlled electromagnetic action
Charles Cohen #2998855 07/04/20 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm not understanding why you wish to simulate a backcheck.
.

This wasnt my idea, and I cant say conclusively which parts of a grand action that I believe is critical to the touch. Simulating the backcheck was ment to be used in an action with a fake let-off, hence without escapement.

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Google "haptic piano keyboard" for some ideas. It's not a simple project. And it's _really_ not simple to make one that's affordable.

As far as I know, researchers have done work with short keyboard sections, or individual keys. I don't think anyone has built an 88-key haptic piano action, yet.

Wow! So it comes down to cost? And I imagine that the incentive to develope this is low considering that high end DPs already have a real grand action, and with little demand the manufacturing price increases further, I guess?

Re: Sensor controlled electromagnetic action
Mikkel #2998890 07/05/20 02:25 AM
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Yes, for sure "low demand" is part of why it's not on the market.

The fanatics enthusiasts, here, might be really wow'ed by a digital piano that could match an upright action, or a grand action, or an organ, by pushing a button. And some would be be willing to pay for it.

For the vast majority of DP buyers, it wouldn't be high on their list of "wanted features".


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Sensor controlled electromagnetic action
Mikkel #2998895 07/05/20 03:06 AM
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Absolutely can be done.

But, you wouldn't use it to simulate the backcheck.

Modern Player pianos already use electromagnets to play the keys.

Last edited by jeffcat; 07/05/20 03:08 AM.
Re: Sensor controlled electromagnetic action
Charles Cohen #2999223 07/05/20 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Absolutely can be done.

But, you wouldn't use it to simulate the backcheck.

My interest in this is primarily to envision a keyboard with multiple touch settings available, and more importantly an interface that enables the user to adjust individual touch parameters to isolate tactile extremes. Being able to jack up the damper weight with, say, 200 grams or changing the jack tension, slope or position in the key dip would be an indispensable tool for passage work practicing.

That - and, while not related to electromagnets, a synthesized VST consisting of a trimbre that evolves dramatically and canonically as a function of the progression in velocity, especially across the quiter velocity range, emphasizing the near imperceptible dynamic differences - would be very useful means to aid in objectifying the work done on phrasing and harmonic animation.

Originally Posted by jeffcat
Modern Player pianos already use electromagnets to play the keys.

Thats news to me. I will have to look into that.

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Yes, for sure "low demand" is part of why it's not on the market.

The fanatics enthusiasts, here, might be really wow'ed by a digital piano that could match an upright action, or a grand action, or an organ, by pushing a button. And some would be be willing to pay for it.

For the vast majority of DP buyers, it wouldn't be high on their list of "wanted features".

Then again, a real grand action is not cheap either. Would be interesting to have a rough estimate on the cost and a rough idea of what it would require to build. Perhabs the application and development of similar technology in other fields could bring down the price in the future?


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