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Re: It’s a fake!
Rickster #2998181 07/03/20 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Rickster
I'm no pro, but whoever restrung the piano seems to have done a good job. Looks professionally done to me, and certainly not a hack job.

Yes, I meant to say above that the amount of work described far exceeds the sales price, so it doesn’t seem to be a case of recent deception. Refinishing alone would be significantly more, but dust in the pictures of the plate indicate that happened quite a while ago.


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998185 07/03/20 09:43 AM
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Yes, Retsacnal, the couple (who were selling a 1.2 million dollar house and didn’t seem to have any real motive to deceive) bought it from a dealer in 1986 along with a story that it had once belonged to Jacques Brourman. I suspect the dealer, long since closed, found that selling refurbished pianos was much easier when they were associated with low-key celebrities. I am not inclined to contact them. There’s not a lot of joy in looking for a piano at such a low price point and I’d rather not go back to it for a couple of years at least. As a previous commenter stated, it’s an average price for a no name grand in decent condition.

I did not ask the tech if it was a Baldwin and he made no mention of it. He did apologize and ask for the serial number and said he would call us today when he’d checked on it.

Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998192 07/03/20 10:12 AM
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Hmm, I don't have any advice for you, I'm sorry you have to deal with this!

But I do want to say, that music desk is really charming!

If this is your upgrade from an upright, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Let us know what the tech thinks when he comes to see it.


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998194 07/03/20 10:14 AM
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I wonder if it isn't a Hamilton. Baldwin produced them and the refinisher may have "decided" to rebrand it.


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998205 07/03/20 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow,RPT
I wonder if it isn't a Hamilton. Baldwin produced them and the refinisher may have "decided" to rebrand it.

A plausible theory for sure.

As for used piano dealers/refurbishers/sellers touting the history of who may have owned a particular piano in the past, as part of a sales pitch, I looked at a small Baldwin baby grand (a real Baldwin, I might add:-) several years ago, that was located just a few miles from me; it was possibly an M, but couldn't have been more than 5', if that. The owners were friendly, and told me the old Baldwin baby grand was once owned by the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra.

Firstly, the fact that the piano may have been owned by the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra at some point in the past did not impress me one bit; and, secondly, neither did the piano, that may have had some work done in the past, but needed a lot more. I passed on the piano, and thanked the owners for letting me look at it.

I'b be interested to know what brand/model Gabrielsyme's piano really was/is...

Rick


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998210 07/03/20 10:38 AM
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It was probably an Ellington, Monarch or Hamilton. Initially some of those had a decal on the fallboard that said product of Baldwin. But there was, as I said above a very famous lawsuit by Baldwin against a dealer in Tennessee in the 80's that was taking no name pianos and putting the Baldwin name on them. If it holds tune, don't worry about it. I honestly don't think the sellers even questioned the make of the piano. Probably bought it like that and never knew.

This is a cautionary tale about buying from private sellers. Statements about the provenance, quality, and whether or not it holds a tune are all to be questioned by the buyer. The famous, "All it needs is a tuning" is one of the biggest lies ever told by someone who does not know a whit about whether or not it actually has ever been tuned. You also hear the sales stories that were told to the customer often repeated to a subsequent buyer. Thus, those of us in the business hear that a Wurlitzer spinet was one of only three made (implying great value in its rarity), that it was owned by a concert pianist, that the Prince of Wales owned one just like it and that it was just tuned (35 years ago).


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998214 07/03/20 10:42 AM
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http://kluttzpianocompany.com/showroom

If you scroll down in the link above what appears to be the same piano is selling as a Winter. The serial number on mine is 87379 which could be a 1940 BAldwin but also works as a 1957 Winter. The serial number itself does not seem to have been tampered with.

Re: It’s a fake!
S. Phillips #2998217 07/03/20 10:48 AM
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😂 In my defense, I was unimpressed by the story of provenance and it was only 2 or 3 cents flat.

Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998233 07/03/20 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabrielsyme
http://kluttzpianocompany.com/showroom

If you scroll down in the link above what appears to be the same piano is selling as a Winter. The serial number on mine is 87379 which could be a 1940 BAldwin but also works as a 1957 Winter. The serial number itself does not seem to have been tampered with.

You are right about the Winter grand... the decorative fallboard design looks exactly like yours...

Just play it and enjoy it! And, when you get ready to sell it, you have an interesting story to tell the potential buyers about its provenance. smile

Rick


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998250 07/03/20 11:58 AM
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So is there any chance that the Winter piano company was connected to Baldwin?

How did you figure out the connection to Winter in the first place?


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998257 07/03/20 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabrielsyme
http://kluttzpianocompany.com/showroom

If you scroll down in the link above what appears to be the same piano is selling as a Winter. The serial number on mine is 87379 which could be a 1940 BAldwin but also works as a 1957 Winter. The serial number itself does not seem to have been tampered with.
Actually the serial number doesn't work as a 1957 Winter - more like a 1928 Winter - at least per the Bluebook of Pianos. (below) and one other source I found on the internet.

WINTER
1900-4000 1940-183000 1952-291000 1957-84800
1910-28000 1946-225000 1953-310000 1958-92500
1930-98000 1951-278000 1955-324000 1960-102000
1960-364200 1966-397700 1972-420500 1978-440000
1961-370700 1967-401500 1973-424900 1979-444000
1962-376900 1968-405200 1974-430300 1980-446900
1963-383100 1969-407500 1975-433400 1981-449700

https://pianoagecalculator.com/

You mght want to contact the Klurtz piano company directly and ask then about the age of the Winter they have for sale - since it looks identical to your piano.


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Re: It’s a fake!
ShiroKuro #2998260 07/03/20 12:16 PM
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It’s posted in the link from kluttz piano company. It’s listed as a Winter piano. Looks very much like the OPs piano.


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998277 07/03/20 01:01 PM
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I found the connection to Winter by doing a scan of piano serial numbers in the right ballpark and got lucky with Google image search. That is, search Ivers and Pond grand piano, Winter grand piano, etc... until I found the right one. Still not clear that the serial number matches a Winter from the 1920s though unless I’m reading the table incorrectly. It does make more sense though to partially rebuild a 60 year old piano (in the 1980s) than a 30 year old one.

Would a 1920s Winter have been a better piano than one from the 50s? One can only hope. It’s so funny that this is where we’ve landed because for years I’ve given my mother a (not unkind) hard time about her Winter spinet and now she’s feeling a little smug that it turns out I can’t tell the difference after all. Karma I tell you.

Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998278 07/03/20 01:03 PM
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Baldwin made pianos had a little round medallion inset into the plate that said "Product of Baldwin," about 1-1/4" in diameter. I did not see any place where there might have been one.

Anything bought from a private party is sold as-is. It is the buyer's responsibility to determine whether any representations are accurate. In this case, the technician should have been able to tell, but since the buyer apparently did not ask, there is no liability there, either. But if I were to ask the technician whether it was a Baldwin M and the response is not "no," I would be looking for a new technician.


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998280 07/03/20 01:04 PM
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Did Baldwin’s ownership ever pass through the Aeolian conglomerate? The reason I ask is that I have an Apollo Baby grand that also has no manufacturerer’s name cast into the plate. Yet, the Apollo name was known and would have had some calue. The serial number yielded at date around 1926, which was during the time Aeolian owned Apollo.

So, I wonder if Aeolian made lots of fungible baby grands without names on the plates, and just decalled them with the various names they owned to market them.

Weighing against this idea, though, is the difference between my plate and the OP’s plate.


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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998281 07/03/20 01:10 PM
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BTW, I think that music stand is gorgeous! It is elegant, yet simple and unpretentious. I think I would enjoy sitting in front of it very much.


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Re: It’s a fake!
ShiroKuro #2998284 07/03/20 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Hmm, I don't have any advice for you, I'm sorry you have to deal with this!

But I do want to say, that music desk is really charming!

If this is your upgrade from an upright, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Let us know what the tech thinks when he comes to see it.
I agree it is a nice looking piano and that music desk is special..What is the name of the action in this piano .

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/03/20 01:18 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998287 07/03/20 01:28 PM
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However, the Winter company generally made some pretty respectable pianos. And if your rebuild job was as good as it "appears" you may have gotten quite a bargain.

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Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998293 07/03/20 01:51 PM
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Perhaps 2/3 rds a Winter and 1/3 a Baldwin.I wonder if rebuilders did such things at one time.
Still because of Baldwin being so highly rated it could not have been innocent.
I guess I just cannot bare to think someone would deliberately replace the fallnoard with the Baldwin decal.
Also if that was done ,it must have been done more recently, because the Winter music desk is so
distinctive.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/03/20 01:53 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: It’s a fake!
Gabrielsyme #2998301 07/03/20 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabrielsyme
I found the connection to Winter by doing a scan of piano serial numbers in the right ballpark and got lucky with Google image search. That is, search Ivers and Pond grand piano, Winter grand piano, etc... until I found the right one. Still not clear that the serial number matches a Winter from the 1920s though unless I’m reading the table incorrectly. It does make more sense though to partially rebuild a 60 year old piano (in the 1980s) than a 30 year old one.

Would a 1920s Winter have been a better piano than one from the 50s? One can only hope. It’s so funny that this is where we’ve landed because for years I’ve given my mother a (not unkind) hard time about her Winter spinet and now she’s feeling a little smug that it turns out I can’t tell the difference after all. Karma I tell you.
Actually, you are correct. The chart is a mess. Contradicts itself. Per the chart your piano could either be from 1958 or 1928. That's why I think you should contact the Kluttz piano company.


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