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Thank you! Well, I am new to the "digital" world and do not have any preoccupation with respect to modelling/sampling. To be honest, I mostly like the Roland sound (although it is sometimes noticeable that it is not natural). Especially, I often find the piano sound of RD-2000 lacking some kind of "sparkle" (it's hard to describe). But perhaps this is exactly something that can be adjusted in the piano designer. The funny thing is that I sometimes really like the sound, sometimes not that much :-) I will try to get hands on it for an extended period of time.

Thank you, I haven't noticed that Yohan Kim uses RD-2000! (I have been actually watching some of his videos on FP-90 recently.) I must say that I seem to like the sound of RD-2000 in his videos (although it's usually in the mix).


I might be wrong on this, but I thought that V-Piano (as an instrument) might be obsolete at this time, but the V-Piano modelling technology (or more precisely its successors) are still viable in these days. Even in the thread you have linked, there is a post indicating that RD-2000 has both the modelling engine and the action newer by two generations (so I believe it is a bit unfair to disregard RD-2000 based on the experience with a decade (?) old instrument). I am not saying that the sound is perfect (I also find it synthetic from time to time, and I might actually prefer Kawai's sampling - but I do not feel that it is that bad).

As for MP7SE (and I guess also ES8), I was not impressed by the RH3 action to say the truth (especially when compared to PHA-50 and Grand Feel Compact). I guess that the only "portable" proposition from Kawai is then the MP11SE, which I cannot find anywhere to try out (as far as I know, it has the 1st gen Grand Feel action and I am not sure how it differs from the GFC and whether I would like it). However, I might like Kawai (e.g., CA-58 I have tried recently) a little bit more than Rolands both in action and the sound, but I am being deterred by the lack of portability and functionality (especially compared to RD-2000). But usually when I get to high-end Kawai pianos, I am having fun :-) Just I am feeling like those does not bring me that much extra compared to my acoustic upright (except for the headphone mode).

Thank you Bruce for your very detailed and helpful post (which made me actually even more interested in RD-2000)! (and my apologies for cutting it down)
I absolutely understand your point about the sound system. I do not have particularly good headphones for this kind of testing (Sony's WH1000XM3 which are everything but "audiophile" quality :-)). However, even from my vague testing of both Kawai and Roland, I have seen how much a "better" sound system can do (and how much more enjoyable it can be to play).
I am not looking for the "100% realistically sounding" DP, more like something that is real enough so that it is not annoying to play. I have been considering getting a DP some 10 years ago, and I feel like huge leap forward has been made both in the actions and sound by all the major manufacturers. I found Kawais probably somewhat more real-sounding (as you mentioned, I lack the dynamics and "sparkle" in the sound of Roland). But if that is possible to fix, that's actually great! Also, thanks for mentioning the latency thing when using VSTs (which is probably one of the main reasons for me to consider RD-2000 over FP-90). I know that the latencies can be dialed down significantly by using, e.g., ASIO4ALL, but I was worried that even those few 10s of ms of latency can make a difference.

As for the "richness" of RD-2000 piano sound. I have seen/heard somewhere that this can be improved by layering multiple piano sounds. But I have never heard the outcome :-) Have you tried that and can you confirm/dismiss that please?

You know, Nicknametaken, I also “downgraded” from the LX-17 to the P-515, and not only did I not miss a thing, but I also felt like I went from a tiny upright to the most majestic of concert grands. It is uncanny how much better the latter is, and yes, the former has huge -10 inch- cojones driving the bass. Still the P-515’s tiny b@lls rumble and growl more naturally; completely undisturbed by excess bushings!

RD 2000. Actually, I do two things... one is to make the v-piano sound I like even better, the other is just nuts and pure joy....

First, I made a v-piano sound the way I like it. My objective was simple: make it more dynamic. A ticket to Roland support and they said you can not change the dynamics without also changing the sound. So to make it more dynamic, I changed the touch to light... but this makes it more bright like you are hitting the keys harder. So I found a big, deep and dull sounding V-Piano sound, and I took out some of the brightness with the equalizer. Dicked with it a bit ... now perfect! Then saved the whole thing so when I power up my board, this V-Piano sound is now my default for Zone 1 and it has the mods already set.

The second is the fun part...... layering. I do this to make a big crazy sound that I love. This is not to sound like a real piano. I layer three items.. my v-piano sound (or use my VST Ravenscroft... one or the other only), A Rhodes that I modded... the RD 2000 has a ton of Rhodes and Whurlizters in it.... I chose one with a phaser then modded the other effects and took out the bass heaviness and amp overdrive (yes this RD 2000 is extremely sophisticated with classic effects boxes)... and I add a light PAD. Balance the three with the zone volume sliders and I get a BIG BIG sound. Just cool.

So when I power up, I have the board configured with my modded V-Piano and a MIDI send to my computer. With one button I can flip between my V-Piano or the Ravenscroft VST. Then hit one other button, and my Fun patch pops up and I play away (this sound requires Her to be out and have plenty of Pilsner Urquells on hand). Fun. The RD- 2000 is fun after a bunch of beers.... and with a whole deck of sound effect boxes can sure kill an evening.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

I was doubting between the mp7se and the RD2000 for a long time.. and when i finally decided on the mo7 i found this video

[video:youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d2U2rmS8HE[/video]

Thats when i started trying to find more video’s about the depth and edditabillity of the RD 2000.. now i am still undecided..

But the ease of edditing and ease of layering would be my reason to allways choose the RD2000 above the fp90, as long as you dont need the speakers

Well it ain't all that easy with the RD-2000. It takes a while to get your head around how the Roland engineers think. The V-Piano sounds can be edited... but the edits are for a piano, not cool effects. The rest of the piano can be edited like crazy. Those knobs on the left side correspond to effects .... but they don't always work as you think. I don't even use the knobs as they confuse me..... I can see how a performing musician would love them but I have no... well I just don't use them. For example, if you want to edit a Rhodes, you can go into the menus and there are something like 36 effect boxes you can add and all of their knobs and sliders are represented in the menu.... how they express themselves in the knobs is a mystery to me.

All I am saying, is this machine is complex.... very complex. On the flip, under skilled hands, this thing is a beast. But ask yourself if you need this. I found it fascinating .... but only use maybe 5% of its capabilities. I tweak a sound... save it ... and that is pretty much it for me. If you buy a DAW and want to arrange, this thing has multiple drum kits, crazy instruments.... you can be an entire studio.

There is another big advantage to this board ... the action. I like it better than the Kawai... but that is just taste... where I came from ... etc... So the V-Piano sound and the action was the clincher for me. But again.... taste is a big issue here.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

I'm really looking forward to the new Roland stage pianos. I haven't played the newest Roland action, but I hear it's great.

Perhaps they use the new V-Piano Expansion for Fantom which is available since May 2020. Unfortunally this is not available under Zenology.

I hope i can test this today in the music store and compare it directly with the rd 2000.

Isnt the v-piano in the fantom the same as in the RD-2000?

Reportedly this plugin board still isnt as good as the orriginal V-piano..

Acoustic Piano in Fantom use the Zen-Core Engine.

Zenology is available in the roland cloud.

You can use the Roland Cloud ultimate abo for 30 days for free
and have access to 3.600 sounds.
but i wait a little bit. They have anounced 4 interesting models anounced til august 2020.

Then i will test it.

But you need a DAW with VST3.6 support.
All knobs can be controlled from the RD 2000.

I have other information.

There are currently 3 types of engines for acoustic piano’s in the fantom..
There is a V-piano engine only for channel 1 Its full modelled
Then there is the Zen-core engine.. its full sample playback
Then they added the Super Natural piano’s which is a combination of sampling and modeling in patch 1.6 or 1.7


Might be your source is wrong...

i am not a fantom specialist. as i play acoustic piano on it , the
display name contains Zencore. Zencore is very new for me.
i had read in the news, that fantom comes with a new v-piano expansion.

On RD 2000 the display name contains MD for modeled or SN for super natural.

But it´s no problem. i am living 10 minutes away from a big music store. i will check this next time.thanks for the info.

Does sound just like other fabricated piano sounds by Roland. Here is a very important point: When you mellow the sound of a piano (sampling, modeling or EQing doesn't matter), you remove some of the details of it, obviously mechanical (the damper), or frequency fiddling or reducing the gain in the highs. That is just fooling your ears by accepting it as a nice piano sound.

Overall, no matter how deep you can adjust the parameters in RD-2000, even with spending years on adding removing layers you can never change the characteristics of the modeled sound. The same goes to samples. The model is not something you can change and that's the Achille's heel of modeling. In the sampling scenario, there are more problems but the samples themselves are the most obvious ones.


That seems to be the integration of 3 old technologies. Does Roland offer Round-Robin/random samples in Zen-Core based piano sound?

Where did you get this information from?

In my RD, with the last firmware update (1.50), the Virtual Piano sounds have an "S" prefix. They go from S01 to S17 with the most recent firmware version. Also, V-Piano sounds are available only in zone 1.

SuperNatural pianos start from 0001, no prefix.

Unless Roland changed the firmware on recent production units and did not release it as an update.

Zone 1
S01 MD
Stage Grand


Zone 1
0001 SN
Concert Grand

System Version 1.50

Oh, I see it now. ROFL.

I was looking at the list when you select the tone with the weel. Honestly, I never paid attention to the MD/SN on the main screen. I haven't used my RD as much as I should though I hope that to change soon (ES8 is much more convenient for my utter lazyness).

So I have in the end got the RD-2000. I must say that I am quite happy with the action so far. I am not sure about the sound though. My issue is that the sound is rather good when I use the onboard recorder and then replay it from my computer. When I use RD-2000 to drive my headphones (Sony WH1000XM3, the same I use to replay the wav file on the computer), the sound seems to be extremely distorted (especially in higher registers and when multiple notes are resonating). I have read somewhere here on the forum that the headphone amp in RD-2000 has lots to be desired - could my issues be caused by this? And if so, could some "cheap" external amp do the trick? I was looking at Fonestar FDA-1A, but I have little idea about audio gear :-) Thank you!

Please forgive the very basic question, but are you recording as an audio file (MP3/WAV) from the DP? Or are you recording MIDI and playing it back on your PC? I'm sure you already know, but the latter isn't recording anything from the piano, the sounds are just being generated by whatever patch you're using on the computer (I only mention this because it's come up a few times before).

I have recorded directly the WAV file using the onboard audio recorder - I think that I do not even know (yet) how to record a MIDI file directly on RD-2000 :-) I have been following this tutorial on the recorder. Thank you!

Just to make sure - my issue is not that the recording from the piano would have been bad (that one is just as I used to hear, e.g., in various YT reviews of the DP). My issue is the other way around: The sound I get when I connect the headphones directly to the piano is distorted.

I own an RD-2000, Nord Stage 3, Yamaha. The NS3 and Yamaha sounds are better. The RD action is better. I prefer better action to better sound. Everything in life is a trade-off. But then again, some days I like the RD sounds better!

My RD-2000's headphone jack does not distort with either Grado or Focal headphones. Honestly, I have no idea why that is happening. Can you try another set of phones? Borrow them or use some earbuds with an adapter plug.

I am no fan of the headphone amp in the RD-2000 and I use an outboard old Grado headphone amp. While not a fan of it, it does not distort with my phones. BTW, you can contact Roland's service.. I use email.. they are pretty good... let them know the make and model of your headphone.

Peace
Bruce in Philly