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Music School Graduates
#2997840 07/02/20 12:45 PM
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Hello,

What do graduates from top music schools such as Julliard and Curtis end up doing? I have heard stories about how they had to give up music and work at a minimum wage job. Do most of them acquire a career in music, let alone a performance career?

Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2997848 07/02/20 12:53 PM
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I kind of alluded to this in my reply to your last thread but here goes:

Juilliard grad: No job, didn't get into any DMA programs, trying to find something completely unrelated to music to make a living with.

Juilliard grad: No name DMA program, teaches unruly beginner children on a budget digital piano (can't afford anything better).

Juilliard grad (+college degree): Investment banking

Juilliard grad (+college degree): Investment banking

Juilliard grad: Private wealth management

Curtis grad: Had performing career early on, now does private equity instead

Curtis grad: Juilliard DMA

Juilliard grad: Plays with unknown orchestra which doesn't pay the bills, teaches and does small gigs on the side, barely scrapes by

Juilliard grad: Teaches unruly beginner children, barely scrapes by

Curtis + Juilliard grad: Won lots of competitions, has an actual performing career

Last edited by trigalg693; 07/02/20 12:54 PM.
Re: Music School Graduates
trigalg693 #2997850 07/02/20 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by trigalg693
I kind of alluded to this in my reply to your last thread but here goes:

Juilliard grad: No job, didn't get into any DMA programs, trying to find something completely unrelated to music to make a living with.

Juilliard grad: No name DMA program, teaches unruly beginner children on a budget digital piano (can't afford anything better).

Juilliard grad (+college degree): Investment banking

Juilliard grad (+college degree): Investment banking

Juilliard grad: Private wealth management

Curtis grad: Had performing career early on, now does private equity instead

Curtis grad: Juilliard DMA

Juilliard grad: Plays with unknown orchestra which doesn't pay the bills, teaches and does small gigs on the side, barely scrapes by

Juilliard grad: Teaches unruly beginner children, barely scrapes by

Curtis + Juilliard grad: Won lots of competitions, has an actual performing career

cyka blyat
That's scary.

Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2997854 07/02/20 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
Hello,

What do graduates from top music schools such as Julliard and Curtis end up doing? I have heard stories about how they had to give up music and work at a minimum wage job. Do most of them acquire a career in music, let alone a performance career?


Rather than abandon music, you will find Juilliard grads who teach privately and may or may not take other jobs as a church musician, paid accompanist for amateurs or develop a small ensemble for local performances.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2997860 07/02/20 01:10 PM
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Mostly, they end up competing against all the other Juilliard grads offering lessons for $30 an hour on Craigslist. The lucky ones get small positions at regional universities as adjunct professors (usually no healthcare or income in the summer).

The upper tier can look forward to actual tenured positions (rarer and rarer) at smaller universities and decent paying church jobs, and one in a hundred will have an actual concert career.

Last edited by computerpro3; 07/02/20 01:10 PM.
Re: Music School Graduates
dogperson #2997863 07/02/20 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by samwitdangol
Hello,

What do graduates from top music schools such as Julliard and Curtis end up doing? I have heard stories about how they had to give up music and work at a minimum wage job. Do most of them acquire a career in music, let alone a performance career?


Rather than abandon music, you will find Juilliard grads who teach privately and may or may not take other jobs as a church musician, paid accompanist for amateurs or develop a small ensemble for local performances.

I find it incredible that most do not obtain performance careers, considering Julliiard is considered by many to be one of the best, if not, the best, music school in the world. It seems that many Julliard graduates and graduates from other top music schools are struggling to survive; I wonder about music graduates from less eminent music schools.

Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2997867 07/02/20 01:15 PM
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Well, here's the thing about being talented: at that level, everyone is talented enough to play anything. A DMA student from Juilliard, Curtis, Peabody, Manhattan, Oberlin, etc will all be playing the same repertoire roughly at the same level.

There are so many talented people relative to so few bona-fide, full-time concert pianist jobs, being really good just isn't enough. This is where other things like an entrepreneurial mindset, street smarts, networking ability, contacts you've made, your marketing skills, social media skills, how wealthy you are (you can practice more if you don't have to have a job), etc, all come into play.

Being good is just the first step. This is why most people wind up teaching to survive. You can think of being a concert pianist like making it in the MLB or NBA, except there are fewer concert pianists than baseball or basketball players!

Last edited by computerpro3; 07/02/20 01:16 PM.
Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2997869 07/02/20 01:16 PM
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This will sound very harsh, but I think you need to be told:
Looking at the "currently working on" in your signature, and given that you are old enough to be on the internet asking these questions, I would say you need to be realistic and understand that a professional pianist career is not in the cards for you unless you're willing to take a very massive risk with your life and try to strike out a non-traditional path. The people who I was referring to were playing far more advanced repertoire at near-professional standard at age 13 or earlier, and getting into Juilliard wasn't all smooth sailing for some of them.

When I was 14-15, I was working on pieces at a similar level as you. I definitely could not get into Juilliard, even though I practiced 3 hours a day in high school, and it took me 10 years before I felt like I played as well as the worst of the people entering Juilliard at age 18.

If you love music and you aren't George Li or Daniil Trifonov or Reed Tetzloff or Lucas Debargue, you need money from somewhere else to fund your hobby. It's a hobby, not a job.

Last edited by trigalg693; 07/02/20 01:20 PM.
Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2997883 07/02/20 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
[...]
I find it incredible that most do not obtain performance careers, considering Julliiard is considered by many to be one of the best, if not, the best, music school in the world. It seems that many Julliard graduates and graduates from other top music schools are struggling to survive; I wonder about music graduates from less eminent music schools.

Why do you find that incredible? Think of the number of competitions featuring outstanding musicians (pianists) trying to get their start in public performance, then think of the concert circuit which is already filled with outstanding world-class pianists, a few new ones and some have have been around for decades, and you should see that there is room only for the most stellar performers. Those who
- are dedicated, physically and emotionally, beyond the norm
- are able to find an agent willing to promote them
- have the right connections
- are willing to struggle against the tide of already known performers
- are willing to struggle against a very uncertain financial future
- are willing to live a subsistence existence while trying to get their names known

The list goes on and on about the difficulties one may face along with the financial costs of trying to get into an already saturated market where only the very best can survive.

A degree from Juilliard or Curtis does not necessarily mean that the person holding the degree is a candidate for stardom on the concert stage, or would even get much local recognition. It does mean that that person has passed through a rigorous, demanding program, but that program does not guarantee a performing career. Some find, as they work through their program, that they are not cut out for the demands of a performing career, in spite of their starry-eyed optimism at the outset.

Given the current world-wide pandemic and what that has already done to performance careers in just a few months, I think many recent graduates of highly esteemed music schools and conservatories who have found other fields in which to earn a living, must be breathing a sigh of relief that they were unable to make it on the concert stage.

Who knows when concerts as we have known them will resume (some are saying more than a year) and what they will be like when they do resume. I firmly believe that many of the current crop of promising young concert artists will fall by the wayside; many are seriously struggling right now and their struggles are likely to continue for some time to come.

Yes, it's not a pretty picture.

Regards,


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Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2997892 07/02/20 02:10 PM
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Here's a real-life example of what trigalg693 has discussed -

http://www.seankennard.com/
https://www.stetson.edu/other/faculty/sean-kennard.php

Undergrad at Curtis, Masters at Juilliard, DMA at Yale, Laureate of the 2013 Queen Elizabeth Competition. Now assistant professor at Stetson Uni. To get an idea of his concertising career at various venues, take a look at his past and current performing schedule: http://www.seankennard.com/#events. In light of what trigalg693 has offered, I'd consider him to be pretty successful.

As others have already pointed out, it's worth noting the individual (and family-based) pressures of studying music in such an intense environment. Lang Lang's an extreme example but his account of his father pushing him to commit suicide on p. 74-75 was a bit hard to read:

https://archive.org/details/journeyofthousan0000lang/page/74/mode/2up?q=balcony

For what it's worth, I think it's great that you're taking the time to ask all of these questions in order to make a well-informed decision.

Last edited by Ravel1875; 07/02/20 02:15 PM.
Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2997898 07/02/20 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
Hello,

What do graduates from top music schools such as Julliard and Curtis end up doing? I have heard stories about how they had to give up music and work at a minimum wage job. Do most of them acquire a career in music, let alone a performance career?
When did you start thinking that you might get a career as a concert pianist?

Did someone give you the idea, based on what you're playing now?

Incidentally, I know a well-known concert pianist who was at high school with me. He was regularly giving (free) lunchtime recitals there, playing the likes of Beethoven's Appassionata, Liszt's B minor Sonata and Mussorgsky's Pictures when he was your age. He was a finalist at the BBC Young Musician Competition as a kid, then went on to win top prizes in international competitions in his early twenties, including the Van Cliburn.

But it wasn't until he won the Tchaikovsky Competition that he had a secure concert career. How many competition winners have there been in the Tchaikovsky, Chopin, Leeds, Van Cliburn and Queen Elisabeth competitions (- wins in other lesser competitions rarely secure a concert career), and of those, how many actually "make it"?

I'd say - if you have your heart set on music as a career, be prepared to teach and do lots of odd musical jobs that include playing stuff you might hate (for parties, weddings etc - don't expect to play Chopin nocturnes in them). You'd have a much better chance if you play non-classical. I know pianists who play (& occasionally sing) pop songs and light jazz in piano bars on cruise ships. I also have a good friend who makes decent pocket money playing entirely by ear with his band - again, pop and jazz only. He has no classical chops. But he does have a good day job that pays the bills......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2997917 07/02/20 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
I find it incredible that most do not obtain performance careers, considering Julliiard is considered by many to be one of the best, if not, the best, music school in the world. It seems that many Julliard graduates and graduates from other top music schools are struggling to survive; I wonder about music graduates from less eminent music schools.
Sometimes they get lucky - and sometimes they don't. Much depends on the individuals, their talent, and the opportunities that come their way. There are no guarantees in life. I attended a large, less eminent music school, and based on what I read in the alumni magazine, a good number of grads have found gainful employment in music education (at all levels) and other music related professions.


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Re: Music School Graduates
computerpro3 #2997946 07/02/20 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by computerpro3
Being good is just the first step. This is why most people wind up teaching to survive. You can think of being a concert pianist like making it in the MLB or NBA, except there are fewer concert pianists than baseball or basketball players!
You hit it out of the park with that simile, computerpro. Swish!


SRF
Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2998033 07/02/20 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
Hello,

What do graduates from top music schools such as Julliard and Curtis end up doing? I have heard stories about how they had to give up music and work at a minimum wage job. Do most of them acquire a career in music, let alone a performance career?

From the looks of it you're just going to keep posting similar threads until you get the answers you want. I'm sure that there's someone out there that will tell you what you want to hear. In the meantime, just keep ignoring what the rest of us have to say.


Kawai K300
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Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2998037 07/02/20 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by L'Orfeo
[quote=samwitdangol]Hello,

From the looks of it you're just going to keep posting similar threads until you get the answers you want. I'm sure that there's someone out there that will tell you what you want to hear. In the meantime, just keep ignoring what the rest of us have to say.

Not at all. I am acknowledging and considering what most people have to say. Honestly, I dismiss the ones that say something along the lines of "if you have the dedication, you can do it!"
Yes, I do have three threads on this topic, and this will be the last; I should have just put them in the same one.
After people informed me about how low my chances actually are to become a concert pianist, I started wondering about music schools and alternative options, such as two careers. I cannot really see myself doing anything else in the future. Also, we have spent a lot of time and money towards piano, and I really want to turn it into a career. If I do not, I feel like it will be a waste.

Last edited by samwitdangol; 07/02/20 08:53 PM.
Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2998040 07/02/20 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
Originally Posted by L'Orfeo
[quote=samwitdangol]Hello,

From the looks of it you're just going to keep posting similar threads until you get the answers you want. I'm sure that there's someone out there that will tell you what you want to hear. In the meantime, just keep ignoring what the rest of us have to say.

Not at all. I am acknowledging and considering what everybody has to say.
Yes, I do have three threads on this topic, and this will be the last; I should have just put them in the same one.
After people informed me about how low my chances actually are to become a concert pianist, I started wondering about music schools and alternative options, such as two careers. We have spent a lot of time and money towards piano, and I really want to turn it into a career. If I do not, I feel like it will be a waste.


If you love music, which I really think you do, what you have learned so far can never be a waste but just the beginning of learning. There is no reason to stop anything no matter what your career. I did not attend conservatory, but know I play much better than I did at the age of 14. Piano is a lifelong pursuit without an end.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2998044 07/02/20 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
.....we have spent a lot of time and money towards piano, and I really want to turn it into a career. If I do not, I feel like it will be a waste.
The question is - do you love (classical) music and the piano, and do you want to keep on playing, whether or not it makes you any money?

If you do, your lessons weren't wasted. If you think that piano lessons are only worthwhile if you get a good career out of it, you might be badly disillusioned.

Incidentally, the majority here in Pianist Corner are accomplished pianists who had lessons for a decade or more (and some are still having lessons now), but have successful careers unrelated to music, i.e. we don't make any money out of it. Playing the amazing classical piano rep and discovering its endless riches, maybe performing occasionally - but not for money - (and for a few of us, participating in amateur competitions) are more than enough rewards for the effort and time we put into it.

I had piano lessons for ten years as a kid, did all eight ABRSM Grade exams and finished with a performance diploma, but have never made a penny from my piano playing, though I have been performing regularly for several years - in a proselytizing role. Recently, I started teaching too, but again not for money. (My university course and degrees were completely unrelated to music, but gave me a successful career that enabled me to do what I want with my life......and my piano playing).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Music School Graduates
bennevis #2998052 07/02/20 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by samwitdangol
.....we have spent a lot of time and money towards piano, and I really want to turn it into a career. If I do not, I feel like it will be a waste.
The question is - do you love (classical) music and the piano, and do you want to keep on playing, whether or not it makes you any money?

If you do, your lessons weren't wasted. If you think that piano lessons are only worthwhile if you get a good career out of it, you might be badly disillusioned.

Yes, I do love classical music and piano, and would continue if it did not earn me money; It would be great if I could make a career out of it though.
I plan to pursue higher education in music, but if I take that path and I fail, then it may be difficult to make a comfortable living doing anything, even things outside music.

Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2998056 07/02/20 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by samwitdangol
.....we have spent a lot of time and money towards piano, and I really want to turn it into a career. If I do not, I feel like it will be a waste.
The question is - do you love (classical) music and the piano, and do you want to keep on playing, whether or not it makes you any money?

If you do, your lessons weren't wasted. If you think that piano lessons are only worthwhile if you get a good career out of it, you might be badly disillusioned.

Yes, I do love classical music and piano, and would continue if it did not earn me money; It would be great if I could make a career out of it though.
I plan to pursue higher education in music, but if I take that path and I fail, then it may be difficult to make a comfortable living doing anything, even things outside music.


No, if you fail at music, it will not be difficult to make a comfortable living in another career. You will still be able to get training in another professional area. Thomas Yu, already discussed, was a concert pianist and is now a periodontist and an outstanding amateur pianist.

If you want a musical degree, you need to vigorously pursue what you need to get admitted. I have said this so much I sound like a broken record and even to myself. You will not get admitted unless you improve the level of the music that you’re playing so you have work to do. Start NOW

Last edited by dogperson; 07/02/20 09:35 PM.
Re: Music School Graduates
samwitdangol #2998059 07/02/20 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by samwitdangol
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by samwitdangol
.....we have spent a lot of time and money towards piano, and I really want to turn it into a career. If I do not, I feel like it will be a waste.
The question is - do you love (classical) music and the piano, and do you want to keep on playing, whether or not it makes you any money?

If you do, your lessons weren't wasted. If you think that piano lessons are only worthwhile if you get a good career out of it, you might be badly disillusioned.

Yes, I do love classical music and piano, and would continue if it did not earn me money; It would be great if I could make a career out of it though.
I plan to pursue higher education in music, but if I take that path and I fail, then it may be difficult to make a comfortable living doing anything, even things outside music.
I know someone - the husband of a good friend - who went to a conservatoire, won lots of prizes but was unable to get enough concert dates to make a decent living from performing. He didn't want to teach, so he went back to university to do a medical degree and is now a successful physician at a London hospital.

As I mentioned earlier, it's possible to make a career from music even if you're not a performer (and let's face it, it's almost impossible to make a living purely from performing classical music these days, even if you're a prodigy) if you're prepared to teach and do all sorts of odd musical jobs. In the US, you don't need any qualifications to set yourself up as a piano teacher.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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