Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Is the Disklavier Mark IV worth almost 2x the cost of some of the other systems

Peter, you shouldn't have any problems or compatibility issues, having a PNOscan/midi9 strip installed into any piano with any of the systems out there, LX, Pianodisc, QRS etc. That being said, the best quality playback is going to come from the LX system. The other competing systems simply can not reproduce as well as the LX.

Peter

Here are some of my conclusions to date and I hope they help.

Since you already own a Kanbe you are looking at retrofit systems which eliminate the Yamaha Disklavier and the Bosendorfer CEUS. However, if recording is important to you I would suggest that you first go to a Yamaha dealer and record on both the Mark IV and the Mark IV pro (which records and plays back in high definition similar to the LX). I would do this to get an idea of what the top of the line does. You can then compare this to the retrofit systems. Where I live in Los Angeles the Yamaha dealer also installs the major retrofit systems but not the LX so you can hear your recordings and playback side by side. The key is that you like what you see and hear. I would also pick a classical piece that you like, the more complex the better, and have the dealer play it back on each system using that systems disk (music that is formatted for the specific system). I would take your Yamaha Mark IV pro recording to the LX dealer just in case the dealer does not have a good recording piano.

I do not know what other features you are looking at but I would use the Yamaha Mark IV as the standard for an integrated entertainment center (both function and quality) and reduce functionality to the level that you are comfortable with.

From what I understand, all of the systems playback to the MIDI standard of 128 levels of intensity for each key but there is a lot more involved in both playback and recording. For example the Live Performance LX plays back at over 1000 levels of intensity and has I think 256 levels of proportional pedaling – High definition (Disklavier Mark IV pro also has High definition for record and playback). There is a lot more to high definition and someone more qualified than me can explain it (I hope) and better compare the Disklavier Mark IV pro to the LX.

I have a few concerns.
-From what I have been told, the installation and adjusting of the retrofit system is critical so make sure that whoever does it is very experienced (this is not an issue with the factory installed systems Disklavier and CEUS).
-While the LX may be the best playback system, if you want the other functionality including recording, it will not come from the factory but from the dealer / technician who installers it (someone correct me if I am wrong). I would prefer to get all the system components from one company so I know that they have been integrated and tested. The LX comes from Wayne Stahnke who I understand developed the modern technology, developed the older Bosendorfer SE (which is still in use) and was key to the development of the Disklavier Mark IV. So with him you are getting the best with a reputation of standing behind his products and if he is behind adding any additional functionality or interfacing to the components that you need than I would not be concerned about quality.
-Make sure the system can play from multiple sources including Yamaha because of the size of their library.

No matter how you look at it, price is always an issue and I am having trouble getting good target prices for comparison over the Web other than ranges. It looks like it will require a lot of foot work. There have been a lot of postings about price and discount issues, just search for price and/or wholesale and you have a lot of interesting reading.

Steve

Kevin

Is your DC3M4 a pro and if you looked at both why did you decide one way or the other. On paper there is a significant difference in recording and playback, but I am not sure that difference matters to the normal ear like mine considering the cost delta (I have heard it is about 3k – 4k more but I am not sure and you have to purchase a C3 or above)

Thanks,
Steve

If recording is important, the Disklavier, CEUS and SE systems are by far the best options, as they utilize the "optical shutters on the hammer shanks" method of measuring hammer velocity (invented by Mr. Stahnke) and they capture proportional pedaling. The recording options supplied by PianoDisc and QRS are not terrible, but they fall short of these more accurate (and expensive) systems. As for the LX, it currently does not have its own recording system. I suspect this is because it would be prohibitively labor-intensive to install an optical shutter system, difficult to design one that could be fitted to "any" grand piano, and because anything less would be a poor match to the LX's playback capabilities.

The retrofit MIDI output options such as the MIDI9 and Moog PianoBar can be used for recording, but these systems are really more geared towards layering MIDI synth sounds on top of an acoustic piano during live performance. They won't capture pedaling very accurately, and there may be inconsistencies in timing and velocity measurements from note to note. But depending on the application, they may be good enough. A separate high-end digital piano with built-in sequencer would likely produce higher-quality recordings, as it will be mechanically more consistent and the onboard sequencer will eliminate timing inaccuracy resulting from wireline MIDI event serialization.

Steve, I do not have a pro. I only considered it very briefly. When I purchased mine (Nov. 2007ish) the pro was differentiated from the non pro by the fact that the pro DIDN'T include the speakers built into the piano (I guess they assumed that "pros" would have their own monitors?). Recording was very important to me, and upon listening to recordings on a non pro I was quite satisfied that my untrained ear couldn't tell the difference between the pro and non-pro. It may very well come down to what type of music you are playing back and/or recording. My uncle is a fantastic jazz improve artist...maybe my opinion would be different if I had access to a classical pianist to record?

There is extraordinarily little prerecorded music available in the Disklavier Pro format (maybe only the e-competition? and the e-competition files sound great on my piano anyway) So, the major benefit of the pro system will *only* show itself on recordings that you make yourself.

-Kevin

I'll offer some of the possibilities with the QRS system since they are my primary specialty...

Internet connectivity: Yes. With QRS, the best way to do this IMO, would be to purchase the Lifetime NetPiano subscription. This allows you access to their entire music library (except sync-alongs) forever. As the QRS music library expands, so does your music collection--at no additional cost. http://www.netpiano.com/NetPiano/default.aspx

Entertainment Center: There are a couple ways to handle this. The more expensive way would be to use the Q-Touch Tablet--http://qrsmusic.com/pianomation-p.asp?pid=3383 More recently though, QRS has entered into an agreement with Phillips, so that some of their specialty 'home-entertainment system' remotes will also be able to control your player system-- http://qrsmusic.com/press_details.asp?rid=123

You can view the QRS music library here:

http://qrsmusic.com/music.asp

They've been especially active in developing 'sync along' music--which combines accompaniment to familiar original artist CD's:

http://qrsmusic.com/music.asp?cid1=8

There is also the option of adding a device that matches certain DVDs to piano music:

http://qrsmusic.com/music.asp?cid1=9

The QRS 'front ends' do not come with internal harddrives. Their preference is to use removable mediums such as CF cards. They systems come with 24 pre-loaded songs, and a flashcard with 309 (or so) songs from their own music library.

While at one time they read other formats libraries, they no longer do, especially since PianoDiscs recent conversion to its copywrighted 'silent drive' format.

They can however, read all type 0, and 1 MIDI files. These are couple of sites where I've gotten a several thousand files myself (mostly free-some not) to listen to:

http://www.midiworld.com/classic.htm
http://www.classicalarchives.com/
http://home.wanadoo.nl/dougmckenzie/
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1114/justjaz2.htm
http://www.classicalmusicmidipage.com/music/index.php
http://www.midnitesun.co.uk/otherhtm/framset1.htm
http://members.shaw.ca/smythe/archive.htm

As has been mentioned earlier, QRS does have the PNOscan record strip. If you are particularly interested in silent practice though, I would actually tend to agree with his point about simply getting an separate digital piano for recording.

regards,

Thanks for all the input so far.

From what I can see the issues surrounding the purchase of a reproducing piano are based on a balance between the following, not necessarily in this order:

-Price (Piano – if you need to buy & System)
-Quality of the piano (Condition –if used, brand, and length)
-Quality of the systems performance (Based on your desired functionality with a minimum being playback / reproduction)
-Quality of the systems components
-Functionality of the system (Playback / reproduction, Record, Synthesizer, remote interface, storage, speakers, internet, etc)
-Overall integration / installation
-Resale value of piano and system x years in the future – I do not believe that you make this type of purchase based on resale value but on getting enjoyment for the foreseeable future
-System longevity and upgrade paths

This balance is up to the individual purchaser to decide based on their individual requirements. I think that the key to an informed purchase would for the buyer to understand these variables.

It would be interesting to hear how different members who purchased these systems weighed these variables and how the different sales professions use / weigh these variables.

As for my original question – is the Disklavier Mark IV worth almost 2X the cost of some of the other systems – I have found that the question was flawed because when you add to the other systems all the functionality of the Mark IV you do not have a large price delta. However, with the Mark IV you have to purchase a Yamaha grand at least a DGC1M4 (5’3”) which can change the price component and is problematic is you do not like or want a Yamaha.