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Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2996639 06/29/20 09:52 AM
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Treble notes will brighten but it will take time.

Did the tech solve the problem with "almost dead sounding (like a toy piano)" notes ?
(BTW, how could such a piano leave the Kawai factory, how did the dealer sell it in this condition, really surprising)

Is the only problem left now about ringing notes ?

I have a 2005 RX-2. Here is how it sound.

https://app.box.com/s/mj4ci5zyp2zv78318952c0u3kpy04d7i

Last edited by Hakki; 06/29/20 10:01 AM.
Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2996641 06/29/20 09:58 AM
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Kawai’s GX line of pianos is their mid tiered line equivalent to Yamaha’s CX line. A GX2 is a really nice model. All Kawai’s are very well made and have won awards. I’m sure with Kawai Don’s help, this issue will be fixed. I’m sorry to hear it’s taken so long. On that same note, pardon the pun, new pianos can and do take awhile to settle in and new owners are frequently making notes and working closely with trusted technicians the first year or two or three. That is one of the small disadvantages to buying new. Pianos can be a bit weird before they settle in.


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Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2996648 06/29/20 10:18 AM
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And another recording of my RX-2 with more powerful playing. Listen with headphones please.

https://app.box.com/s/lw6lpghxa04s76di85qtixd9dwfzm72c

Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2996656 06/29/20 10:55 AM
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A skilled technician can reharden hammers via heat and/or via chemicals. Worse thing worse, they could be replaced, since it's just a handful it's not a large job.

From your description I suspect more a problem with the duplex scale. Have you tried muting the duplex scale of the affected notes? you can do it yourself very easily and with no chances of hurting the instrument -- in a simple reversible manner. Others have already suggested it: just put a piece of felt on either or both the front and back of the "non-speaking" part of the strings of the affected notes.

Also, I am not surprised about the technician not hearing what you hear. Unfortunately, some technicians do not wear hear protection and suffer from high-pitch hearing loss (in addition to the "natural" high-pitch hearing loss than most middle to late age men suffer). Moreover, if I understand correctly you are a woman, and women are more sensitive about high-pitches. The issue you describe sounds (no pun intended) to be caused by the high-pitch part of the timbre/overtones. Poor microphones may not record that high-pitch correctly, and poor speakers may not play it back correctly even if recorded, so trying to record may make it "disappear" for you, but anyway it's a good test to make.

I am sure Don Mannino will be able to find the right person to sort this out for you. I was always told Kawai has an excellent warranty and it stands by their instruments and I have no doubt they will sort it out for you.

Please do let us know how this ends up.

D.

Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2996927 06/30/20 04:37 AM
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Wow, quite the response! KawaiDon, I will be in touch. Del Vento, I think your description of the sound - "high-pitch part of the timbre/overtones" - could well be what I'm hearing. I did try to record some of the notes for my dealer a few months back but all I had for recording was a phone and it didn't pick up the ringing notes. And Hakki, my my, your Debussy and Liszt are beautifully played (I don't have the chops for Liszt) and your RX-2 does sound lovely. To answer your question, the dead sounding notes are a little better, the main issues now are the over loud ringing notes (not many) and the lack of power in the upper treble. Will keep you posted.

Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997282 06/30/20 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Katieji
Wow, quite the response! KawaiDon, I will be in touch. Del Vento, I think your description of the sound - "high-pitch part of the timbre/overtones" - could well be what I'm hearing. I did try to record some of the notes for my dealer a few months back but all I had for recording was a phone and it didn't pick up the ringing notes. And Hakki, my my, your Debussy and Liszt are beautifully played (I don't have the chops for Liszt) and your RX-2 does sound lovely. To answer your question, the dead sounding notes are a little better, the main issues now are the over loud ringing notes (not many) and the lack of power in the upper treble. Will keep you posted.
My really old 1966 Kawai 500 was a lovely sounding piano.It traveled across the equator when we
emingrated to Canada in 2001.I sold it in 2017 and because it had started to develop numerous
problems.
My point being that one day I realized it suddenly had lost its brilliance in the higher treble. I do not
know what the problem was but thought that the crown (or bridge in the this area had cracked or broken) One had to suddenly "play louder" in that area if one needed a brilliant tone in that area.
Of course that was an old piano which had done some serious traveling.
Hopefully you do not have a serious problem.
One wonders if a good independent technician who acknowledges the problems you are experiencing could write up a report about the piano and you could present it to the Kawai dealer.
It is not too late for an exchange for a different GX piano.It all depends on how relentless you are
in pursuing the matter. Best wishes.

Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997298 06/30/20 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
One wonders if a good independent technician who acknowledges the problems you are experiencing could write up a report about the piano and you could present it to the Kawai dealer.
It is not too late for an exchange for a different GX piano.It all depends on how relentless you are
in pursuing the matter.
Best wishes.

I would imagine Kawai Don's offer to help is the best opportunity for Katieji to have her piano's issues corrected.

Unfortunately, buying a brand new piano from a dealer is sort of like buying a brand new vehicle from a dealer. Yea, there is a warranty, but if they can't fix the problem, or say they can't hear the problem, or won't acknowledge there is a problem, the buyer is stuck with the piano, or vehicle, usually. It is not very often a dealer will replace a new piano because of these kinds of issues.

And, it is rare that an auto dealer will replace a new vehicle, which is why many states have a "Lemon Law" for new vehicles. Maybe there should be a "Lemon Law" for new pianos.

Typically, tuning issues, voicing issues, sticky keys, buzzes and rattles, are not covered under the manufacturer's warranty. The better dealers will fix these types of issues, usually, as an after-sale courtesy, but many dealers will not.

Manufacturers Warranties usually cover the most catastrophic of failures, which rarely happens. Most of the annoying/irritating things that are customer dissatisfiers, are not covered under the warranty.

Kawai Don has helped many new Kawai piano owners here over the years, who had issues with their new Kawai piano, and thank goodness there are great industry people like Kawai Don how are members here and read these threads and offer to help. It speaks well for Kawai, in my view.

Rick


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Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997334 07/01/20 02:00 AM
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I do really believe that it is possible if one really has major problems like these.The buyer does need all the confidence we can give in this situation.These issues have been persisting.I cannot imagine how difficult this must be for the OP.
I returned a used Yamaha U1 here in Canada .It is true we only had the piano for a week.
Also once we bought a digital Kawai piano which was damaged by the movers.Kawai replaced the
whole new front lower panel of the piano.
If you think I am suggesting that I am asking the OP to be aggressive I am not. Nobody can really
say the piano is a "lemon" but the situation needs to be corrected. How is it possible that a
very good model like a GX has NOT enough power at the top of the piano.NOT possible unless there is a problem.
The MAIN technician at the dealer needs to acknowledge the problem. An independent technician
who writes a report about the problem may help move the process forward.
Again the ONLY reason I write this is to ENABLE the OP. If we all keep saying warranties do not work
we ARE NOT help her.

Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997335 07/01/20 02:06 AM
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I am sorry you feel you have to accentuate what I wrote in red. I feel I am doing what is right.
Her technician does not even seem to be able to acknowledge the problems. If one is sick would a
doctor or even a fellow human not acknowledge the fact.
Most new pianos do have small issues and these are usually attended to by the technician.This seems to have no solution.
What if hammers are replaced and the problem persists ? So yes I suggest she aims to have the piano replaced.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/01/20 02:12 AM. Reason: spelling
Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997481 07/01/20 09:11 AM
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I've emailed Kawai Don so we'll see what happens. Yes an independent technician's opinion/report would be the next step should it be necessary. I haven't been relentless in pursuing the matter partly because in the period before each visit from the technician I had high hopes, and the piano always sounded better after a tuning (as they always do!). After 4 visits I'm beginning to lose hope. But I feel certain it can be rectified somehow.

Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997523 07/01/20 11:22 AM
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Katieji- there are numerous options that exist and can be applied to take care of the issue. It seems a thorough examination needs to be done to figure out exactly what the problem is and I’m sure Kawai Don can help finding a technician with the appropriate diagnostic tools to figure out exactly what is causing the problem.


J & J
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Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
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Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997558 07/01/20 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Katieji
Thank you Rick for the informative description of that training video. I'm encouraged that it's possible to brighten the sound of some notes. If I were to ask my tuner to do that he'd really think I'd lost my marbles...what??? you said they were TOO resonant, now they're too dull???
As for the warranty or speaking to the dealer, the tuner specifically said it's not a warranty issue. And the dealer was aware of the issues from the start, and gave me one free tuning/voicing. He knows how disappointed I am with the instrument, but there isn't much more he can do. And no, I didn't hear these over-resonant notes in the store (which is why the previous thread was so focused on acoustics). I tried to get an acoustician to come to the house but with covid it wasn't happening. I'm just not convinced that's the problem, and the tuner thought the acoustics were okay.
Thank you J & J for putting a positive spin on the tuner's comments...-:)
And willpianist, I'm happy that you're happy with your GX-2. Hope you can get that damper issue resolved.
If I had plenty of time I'd try and figure out how to record what I'm hearing, but I'm one of the lucky ones who hasn't lost her job!

Hi Katieji I think you still have to be open to the possibility that this is a room acoustics issue. It may be hard to be convinced of this until actual changes are made. Have you actually tried any of the recommendations suggested? KawaiDon also mentioned in his post that room acoustics can be a factor in why some notes may be shrill and others overly dampened. I just kind of find it hard to believe that one of the top tuners in your area could not hear that the piano sounded "toy like" or that there was "no sound" with some notes unless this is an exaggeration of the issue.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/01/20 12:51 PM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
KawaiDon #2997572 07/01/20 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by KawaiDon
Katieji, Please contact me by emailing me through the Kawai web site. Please tell me where you live and the name and contact information for your piano technician.

I am quite sure I can advise the tech to take care of this for you. I can't be sure exactly what the issue is based on what you wrote - there are many possible problems including room acoustics which can make individual notes stand out and sound loud. But if it's a voicing matter, it can be resolved.

https://kawaius.com/contact-us/

Put in the subject "GX-2 Voicing Question for Don Mannino"
Why does KawaiDon bring back room accoustics again ? That cause should crossed out if it does not exist. The head technician in the dealer holds a lot of power when it comes to warranty issues.
I have had small issues with my upright. The worst was once the sostenuto failed ,recently I had a squeaky pedal fixed.
Once during cold spell in winter there was a bass note that buzzed.The head technician came over
and the problem disappeared.That situation may have been caused by a large clock on the mantelpiece.
The point being the head technician took these problems seriously and never once said they were
not warranty problems.Before this Sauter piano I had a very new U1. I never grew to really like this piano. There were always buzzes which would come and go. It was very changeable according to
the weather and sometimes the brightness would become mettalic and I mean metallic.
When this happened the technician would come round and do some voicing and the piano would
be better. We later upgraded this piano to the Sauter.
At one stage I was afraid of using an independent technician who was the concert technician. However I got past that stage and because he is in such high standing ,I know that it
will not affect my warranty.
I do not believe I would ever need the warranty for a serious issue ,but who can tell ---- pianos can
be "quirky " creatures.
The title of your thread bothers me Katieji , "Confused about what I am hearing ".Do not be confused 😐
What you are hearing is real.You need to to insist on this ,if you have to. I would think with any good
dealer you would not have to.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/01/20 01:29 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997627 07/01/20 04:07 PM
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I looked back to the original post and she said angling the piano 1 foot from its original position "made a difference". Also opening a French door "helped a little". By changing room acoustics she seemed to imply that this changed for the better or worse how many notes were being affected by what she heard. 4 voicing/tuning sessions did not make much of a difference other than keeping the piano in tune. Given that she did not hear issues with this specific piano at the dealer and these small changes in acoustics made a difference or helped leads me to believe the room is not yet optimized for piano given that an experienced tuner cannot hear what she is hearing. Sometimes tuners can be so "attuned" to what they are listening for that they selectively block out room acoustics and attend (listen to) to only what they are interested in hearing. Kind of like how anyone of can attend to just the clarinet in an orchestra if we focused on that instrument only. This is not to say that something may have changed in the piano during its move but possibly something such as room acoustics/ humidity levels are changing its sound characteristics in the new room. This has not been completely ruled out and KawaiDon was correct to point it out again. Also what one person hears and finds annoying may be completely acceptable to another person. But if problems are being caused by something external to the piano I don't see why this would fall under a warranty issue.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997630 07/01/20 04:14 PM
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Just one more idea: I had one key in the treble that produced a sound that was in fact painful to my ears(actually only to my right ear). I tried various things but nothing seemed to help. What was a bit strange was that it also hurt my ears when played softly. Somehow that frequency caused some kind of resonance which was not good. One day it was gone. Somebody already suggested it might be because of hearing issues that I have. Could be true, because I have some hearing problems like a mild tinnitus and also had some ear wax buildup. My wife did not perceive this shrill ringing for this particular key, so I guess it really was just my hearing. It’s still gone and I am happy now.


W.Hoffmann T122, Roland FP-50, Roland RD-64
Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Jethro #2997658 07/01/20 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
I looked back to the original post and she said angling the piano 1 foot from its original position "made a difference". Also opening a French door "helped a little". By changing room acoustics she seemed to imply that this changed for the better or worse how many notes were being affected by what she heard. 4 voicing/tuning sessions did not make much of a difference other than keeping the piano in tune. Given that she did not hear issues with this specific piano at the dealer and these small changes in acoustics made a difference or helped leads me to believe the room is not yet optimized for piano given that an experienced tuner cannot hear what she is hearing. Sometimes tuners can be so "attuned" to what they are listening for that they selectively block out room acoustics and attend (listen to) to only what they are interested in hearing. Kind of like how anyone of can attend to just the clarinet in an orchestra if we focused on that instrument only. This is not to say that something may have changed in the piano during its move but possibly something such as room acoustics/ humidity levels are changing its sound characteristics in the new room. This has not been completely ruled out and KawaiDon was correct to point it out again. Also what one person hears and finds annoying may be completely acceptable to another person. But if problems are being caused by something external to the piano I don't see why this would fall under a warranty issue.
This is a crazy making situation! Can you even imagine what it must be like. Then you state that this
does not fall under the warranty .Your support of KawaiDon is admirable ???
Since you have never played this piano you cannot just make statements like that. This is just more
"gaslighting" and not very nice Jethro.
Just now the OP will be told "Oh its all in your head" Actually I would have expected more from you
Jethro! "Oh its just an accoustic sound"--nonsence !
I do not know what happened to this piano after being moved from the dealer.Sometimes people miss serious issues in a dealer --- and that is a fact.
This situation is bad for Kawai , it bad for many , especially the OP.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 07/01/20 07:19 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997660 07/01/20 07:21 PM
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I am beginning to wonder if Kawai is losing its touch.Perhaps Yamaha is better after all.

Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Lady Bird #2997662 07/01/20 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I am beginning to wonder if Kawai is losing its touch.Perhaps Yamaha is better after all.
y?

Who from Yamaha would read the problems of an acoustic piano on this forum and reply they are willing to help as a Kawai employee did. The company has been frequently praised on this forum for excellent customer service.

let’s all wait for a final resolution. I don’t think posts like this are helping the OP right now.

Last edited by dogperson; 07/01/20 07:33 PM.

"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
Katieji #2997665 07/01/20 07:48 PM
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Good point, let's try to keep this constructive. We do not know for sure what is causing this issue. If it's in the piano itself, I'm sure it'll be fixed by Kawai. Trying to mute the duplex scale (even with a finger) is a good and easy test to prove or disprove one hypothesis among many.

If the problem is the room itself, hopefully the dealer would still help, but obviously they would not cover the expense. Often times the costs of "fixing" the room are minimal anyway, so it's all about finding out what to do. Some ideas to try are described at https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/ten-ways-to-voice-a-room/ -- most of them deal just with "too much volume" which we know it is not the problem here, but sometimes volume is selective with frequency and reducing the volume of the offending frequencies will help. One test which can be done quick and easy, provided Katieji does not live alone is to have someone else playing the affected notes, alone or in combination. No music required just push the key. Katieji could move around the room as see if the disturbing timbre is identical anywhere in the room or if it gets better/worse in some locations. This test will not tell what to do, but will confirm that something can be done to the room to change the timbre for the better.

Best of luck to her, and as Lady Bird suggested initially and dogperson reinforced later, let's focus on constructive suggestions, ideas or even hypothesis.

Last edited by Del Vento; 07/01/20 07:51 PM.
Re: Confused about what I'm hearing
dogperson #2997672 07/01/20 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I am beginning to wonder if Kawai is losing its touch.Perhaps Yamaha is better after all.
y?

Who from Yamaha would read the problems of an acoustic piano on this forum and reply they are willing to help as a Kawai employee did. The company has been frequently praised on this forum for excellent customer service.

let’s all wait for a final resolution. I don’t think posts like this are helping the OP right now.
I do not believe denial is good either.The piano should be returned that is my belief.
Enough time gone by.

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