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UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
#2996914 06/30/20 03:18 AM
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See
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-millions-after-breaking-competition-law

Large fines imposed on Roland, Korg, Yamaha and GAK for anti competitive price fixing of musical instruments.

Fender and Casio also mentioned as previous offenders.

Last edited by Geoff G UK; 06/30/20 03:27 AM.
Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2996920 06/30/20 04:10 AM
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I'd say a double edged sword for consumers if I've understood it.

Do we want manufacturers and retailers keeping prices high ? No.

Do we need high quality physical stores where we can try musical instruments out in person, perhaps more important for this product category than most, at a time when real stores are struggling against the virus and online competition ? Yes

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2996921 06/30/20 04:13 AM
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So we were right about their golf games together! 🤣

Greg

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2996933 06/30/20 05:16 AM
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On a positive note, this will help consolidate more power and money to our tech billionaire friends and rid us of those pesky music stores and musical instrument makers. They were on their way out anyways. Who doesn't enjoy seeing governments target low hanging fruit with limited resources.

Meanwhile, how about the massive dumping schemes that are wholesale targeting entire industries?

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
newer player #2996939 06/30/20 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player
On a positive note, this will help consolidate more power and money to our tech billionaire friends and rid us of those pesky music stores and musical instrument makers. They were on their way out anyways. Who doesn't enjoy seeing governments target low hanging fruit with limited resources.

Meanwhile, how about the massive dumping schemes that are wholesale targeting entire industries?

I think this is a piano forum rather than a political one.

This is not "the government" in a directly political sense who is doing this.

Wikipedia says the CMA is a "non-ministerial" outfit with a specific remit as follows:

"In situations where competition could be unfair or consumer choice may be affected, the CMA is responsible for:[11]

investigating phase 1 and phase 2 mergers[12]
conducting market studies and market investigations[13]
investigating possible breaches of prohibitions against anti-competitive agreements under the Competition Act 1998
bringing criminal proceedings against individuals who commit cartels offences
enforcing consumer protection legislation, particularly the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Directive and Regulations
encouraging regulators to use their competition powers
considering regulatory references and appeals"

But let's get back to pianos please, and leave out the politics, can we?

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2996940 06/30/20 06:02 AM
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It is good to see the uk government backing up my suspicion about digital pianos being overpriced

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
newer player #2996945 06/30/20 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player
On a positive note, this will help consolidate more power and money to our tech billionaire friends and rid us of those pesky music stores and musical instrument makers. They were on their way out anyways. Who doesn't enjoy seeing governments target low hanging fruit with limited resources?

Well they wouldn't want a tough target would they?

Petrol companies? Woah! Far too tough, plus I expect their organisations might "sponsor" some political parties. Just to keep everybody happy.

Originally Posted by newer player
Meanwhile, how about the massive dumping schemes that are wholesale targeting entire industries?

So right on every count. I wonder just who decided to instigate this investigation and on what evidence provided by who?

There are PLENTY of more common pricings in everyday life that I would like to see challenged by this august body of right minded civil servants who take it on themselves to protect my interests whether I want it or not.

The price of petrol being the most obvious. "No, no, nothing to see here, move along now."

"Electric pianos? The piratical profiteering robbers of innocent kind musicians, take 'em to the cleaners". (But apply a discount to the fines, just to set an example).

I know it may seem strange that there appears to be a strong defence of what we are told (by a government agency, so it's obviously at the very least, suspect) is a price fixing cartel but I don't see much difference in price between the companies named here and the companies that aren't named, with one obvious exception ;-).

When I can buy a Kawai or Nord for 75% the price of the equivalent Roland, Korg or Yamaha I may consider it.

Excellent find by the way, Geoff. Thanks.

Last edited by slipperykeys; 06/30/20 06:15 AM.
Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2996950 06/30/20 06:24 AM
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I don't know the laws involved in any of this. So I wonder whether the illegal activity hinges on whether two or more parties colluded to fix prices?

It seems it's the manufacturer who dictates a minimum price. If a retailer agrees is he in violation? Or is the manufacturer solely responsible?

I ask because that article says this was the first time the CMA acted against a retailer.

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2997051 06/30/20 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff G UK
But let's get back to pianos please, and leave out the politics, can we?
Sincere apologies for any misunderstanding I may have caused. The comments were not directed at any political party, person, or country.

This was a simple observation that global regulators should prioritise the bad behaviour of certain large international monopolistic entities and poorly behaved countries. Over minor transgressions of niche retailers and small manufacturers that already are a few steps from insolvency.

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2997128 06/30/20 03:10 PM
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The Yamaha clavinova CVP series are an utter absolute rip off and so are those genos keyboards too

Nord are a rip off too

In general these things are a rip off - £3k for stuff like montage Kronos or fantom

What the heck - It's only plastic and metal and a few electronics inside

Prices in USA are worse than here in U.K.

Acoustic pianos are worse than digital in terms of rip off prices - the more expensive something is the bigger the profit

Last edited by Edb123; 06/30/20 03:14 PM.
Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2997133 06/30/20 03:19 PM
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None of those are rip-offs. They might be deemed too expensive. But there is no theft involved.

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2997153 06/30/20 04:00 PM
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Meanwhile...

...OPEC members meet, agreeing to cut output in order to to prop up prices.
🤣

Have I missed something?

Perhaps that's the way Roland/Korg/Yamaha should do things from now on. 👍


Car dealerships do it too - in fact, I know of one, whom snitched on another high volume retailer for selling their cars for less.

We're all being bummed one way or another... the question is whether we're happy with it or not. 😳


Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2997154 06/30/20 04:06 PM
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Couldn't £13.7 million worth of fines put some of these companies out of business? They probably operate on razor thin margins.

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
navindra #2997225 06/30/20 07:43 PM
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Businesses that claim to operate on "razor-thin margins" ... don't. The cliche is a lie.

A true razor-thin margin only happens a week before the bankruptcy filing.
Originally Posted by navindra
Couldn't £13.7 million worth of fines put some of these companies out of business? They probably operate on razor thin margins.

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
OscarRamsey #2997228 06/30/20 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by OscarRamsey
Meanwhile...

...OPEC members meet, agreeing to cut output in order to to prop up prices.
🤣

That's a good one !



“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
- Robert Schumann

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Edb123 #2997233 06/30/20 08:06 PM
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I had to look up what a GAK was!

Originally Posted by Edb123
Acoustic pianos are worse than digital in terms of rip off prices - the more expensive something is the bigger the profit

The high end acoustic pianos are certainly expensive. They also take about a year to make. I suspect an entry level digital piano can probably pop off the assembly line in 30 minutes or less. Anyone actually been to an assembly plant for one? Is there a “how it’s made” episode for DPs?


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Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2997368 07/01/20 04:23 AM
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An item costs as much as someone is willing to pay for it. Rip-off means they pointed a gun at your head to purchase it.

BTW I don’t get what exactly is wrong with big companies negotiating with retailers on minimum prices. And why that should be fined.

Last edited by CyberGene; 07/01/20 04:24 AM.

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Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2997377 07/01/20 05:08 AM
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Apparently extremes don't work well.

There are examples of communism/socialism with committees making 5 year plans and there are examples of more or less unregulated capitalism with companies forming cartels and deciding how long a light bulb should last.

Somewhere in the middle is the model that actually works.

I suppose...

Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2997381 07/01/20 05:17 AM
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In the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic there was a shortage of hand sanitizers in Bulgaria (I guess in most of the world too). A tube with hand sanitizer gel that usually costed around €0.50 went as high as €7 and even more. And our government (at the suggestion of the leftists) decided to impose a price ceiling on hand sanitizers and other products to combat profiteers. There were heated debates but ultimately they withdrew the ruling before it became effective. And of course the market self-regulates because the high prices were driven by the shortage, however once the sanitizer manufacturers made up with the supply (it was only a week I think), the prices gradually fell down to almost their pre-pandemic levels. I really believe that the market can self-regulate and the governments should leave it without regulation.

Last edited by CyberGene; 07/01/20 05:18 AM.

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Re: UK Price Fixing judgements name Roland, Korg, Yamaha, GAK
Geoff G UK #2997386 07/01/20 05:30 AM
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It's a matter of drawing the line and where it should be. (On regulation)

I don't have the answer.

But I'm somewhat left-leaning and not an entrepreneur so I don't mind having some regulations like "no-you-cant-just-dump-your-factory-waste-to-the-river".

Enough about politics. 😊

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