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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2992066 06/16/20 02:35 PM
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Pepperidge Farm remembers as well.


Kawai Novus NV10; Yamaha P-515

Adult beginner
Hugh Sung, Popular Piano course (in progress)
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
CyberGene #2992079 06/16/20 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by PapaJohn
Both my kid and I found all the N1Xs we've tried absolutely atrocious over speakers.
That's curious smile I don't often play on speakers, but whenever I do, I'm always impressed how natural my N1X sounds compared to other digital pianos I've tried, including the previous generation of CA-pianos (I haven't tried CAX9-series though, nor the NV10). Comes to show how subjective these things are. But being described as "atrocious" is really odd smile I wouldn't have used that word even for the CA78 which is probably the worst speaker-system I've heard so far among the up-level digital pianos.

Yeah. My kid says I'm being too harsh too. She says muffled. Like someone mumbling. Like a hand clasped over it. Speaking through clenched teeth. As if the sound has been extinguished.

I've played about 10 grands in the last few weeks too (open and closed in various rooms and brands), so I don't think we are anchoring on the 'wall of sound' (borrowing someone else's words) of the CA.


Current: Kawai NV10, Reface CP
Previous: Kawai CA-95, Ensoniq KT-88, 1920's Upright
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2992104 06/16/20 04:07 PM
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^ Ok, that's fair smile I believe other people also agree (including me) that N1X is rather on the muffled side. I personally believe digital pianos can't recreate fully the sound of a real acoustic piano. So, when I have to choose whether I prefer the "muffled" approach versus the "jacked-up in-your-face boom-box" approach of most typical digital pianos, I would go for the more conservative former. But I can understand people who would prefer the latter.

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/16/20 04:09 PM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2992133 06/16/20 05:17 PM
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If there were such a thing as an N2X with the USB interface and improved Bosendorfer headphone sample, I probably would have gotten that on the spot the first time I visited a store. I wouldn't have even thought twice about it. I'm lucky I gave the NV10 another shot. The first I played had the heavy pedal and I think that was so weird it hurt the overall experience. The second had the newer springs, and it was fantastic.


Current: Kawai NV10, Reface CP
Previous: Kawai CA-95, Ensoniq KT-88, 1920's Upright
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2992140 06/16/20 05:31 PM
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I have a question. I played this instrument in the store expecting a lot from such a high priced instrument. After 3 seconds of playing I felt like listening to speakers, imitating a sound etc. I was really disappointed. Then I played a K300 and felt at home - a threedimensionality and body to the music which I played. A singing tone. All of this is very subjective (obviously) and I am probably only 'oldschool'. But my question is, why would I buy that one when I could have a K300 Aures for a similar price? Where I can have a real upright if I want? I am really interested in views. The touch was incredible with the nv10,yes. But the sound, it felt so fake immediately. It's so far away from playing a real grand to me. (Again, the touch does(!) feel like playing a GL30 or so.)

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2992142 06/16/20 05:45 PM
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I understand where you're coming from, Gamma1734. Here's my story.


Kawai Novus NV10; Yamaha P-515

Adult beginner
Hugh Sung, Popular Piano course (in progress)
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Mickey_ #2992149 06/16/20 06:05 PM
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Oh, that was so interesting to read. Thanks!
I see quite some differences to your situation: I would love to play acoustically as much as possible, and I played for 17 years now and mainly rather virtuosic pieces. Nice to hear you're happy with your current instrument.
I forgot of course that the actions of a NV10 and a K300 are completely different, because upright vs. grand. That's something I am also quite unsure, if I would prefer a grand action. I grew up wth an upright. Sometimes I feel like it's too late for me to change my "programming" to play like on a grand. Our upright had such a light touch. Well. The dynamics you got from it are like starting from forte upwards smile

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gamma1734 #2992155 06/16/20 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gamma1734
I have a question. I played this instrument in the store expecting a lot from such a high priced instrument. After 3 seconds of playing I felt like listening to speakers, imitating a sound etc. I was really disappointed. Then I played a K300 and felt at home - a threedimensionality and body to the music which I played. A singing tone. All of this is very subjective (obviously) and I am probably only 'oldschool'. But my question is, why would I buy that one when I could have a K300 Aures for a similar price? Where I can have a real upright if I want? I am really interested in views. The touch was incredible with the nv10,yes. But the sound, it felt so fake immediately. It's so far away from playing a real grand to me. (Again, the touch does(!) feel like playing a GL30 or so.)

This video is from a salesman who initially didn't like the NV10 sound either:


Personally, I feel deeply unsatisfied with most upright actions versus the NV10. I'm also happy playing the NV10 at lower volumes unlike that guy in the video.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gamma1734 #2992157 06/16/20 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gamma1734
I have a question. I played this instrument in the store expecting a lot from such a high priced instrument. After 3 seconds of playing I felt like listening to speakers, imitating a sound etc. I was really disappointed. Then I played a K300 and felt at home - a threedimensionality and body to the music which I played. A singing tone. All of this is very subjective (obviously) and I am probably only 'oldschool'. But my question is, why would I buy that one when I could have a K300 Aures for a similar price? Where I can have a real upright if I want? I am really interested in views. The touch was incredible with the nv10,yes. But the sound, it felt so fake immediately. It's so far away from playing a real grand to me. (Again, the touch does(!) feel like playing a GL30 or so.)

Nah, it's not an oldschool or odd position to take at all. IMHO, it's a question about what is more important to you - tone or touch. Any well-maintained/regulated upright will sound better than any digital piano, hybrid or VST, whether the output is a headphone, speaker, 10 speakers, a soundboard, ribbon/horn, etc. The piano just has natural resonances and sound projection that we can't yet replicate digitally. If that's what is important to you, then it makes perfect sense that you would prefer an upright silent piano over a hybrid grand.

If on the other hand you're one of those who accept that the digital sound is what it is, and find what is most important to be a true grand action, then a hybrid grand makes sense. If folks like navindra really dislike an upright action, then no upright is going to make them happy, no matter how authentic the tone is.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gombessa #2992169 06/16/20 06:54 PM
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That's what most people also said to me. Yes, the naturalness of the tone is indeed quite important for me. After playing a bit on the nv10 and then sitting at the K300 I suddenly felt at home. The impact of the difference I almost can't describe. It also doesn't make logical sense I'm afraid but...
I will only need to do some VST testing because that's mainly how I play piano. If a K300ATX or K500ATX sounds good as upright but doesn't work good as "midi controller" I have to look else where. Do you have experience or read about that? Does the nv10 work good as midi controller? And your grand action argument: I am wondering: 8 or 9k for a nv10, aren't we very close to baby grand territory anyhow?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gamma1734 #2992181 06/16/20 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gamma1734
That's what most people also said to me. Yes, the naturalness of the tone is indeed quite important for me. After playing a bit on the nv10 and then sitting at the K300 I suddenly felt at home. The impact of the difference I almost can't describe. It also doesn't make logical sense I'm afraid but...
I will only need to do some VST testing because that's mainly how I play piano. If a K300ATX or K500ATX sounds good as upright but doesn't work good as "midi controller" I have to look else where. Do you have experience or read about that? Does the nv10 work good as midi controller? And your grand action argument: I am wondering: 8 or 9k for a nv10, aren't we very close to baby grand territory anyhow?

If you want to buy/house/maintain a baby grand, that's certainly an option and one I had considered as well but it didn't pan out. I'm sure given the option, many of us would opt for the full mansion complete with 8-foot grand piano with piano tuner/technician on hand. smile

Personally, I didn't like the Kawai and Yamaha uprights at all (others love these pianos), but I did like Ritmüller and more upscale brands like Schimmel. I also came across a Yamaha GB1K baby grand that I thought was awesome. It all depends on your scenario.

Regarding your MIDI controller question, I don't think you need to have any worries at all here but perhaps you could bring a laptop to the shop and test it out? At most you'll need to tweak the velocity curve. There are several competent piano players here who use the NV10 as a MIDI controller.

Otherwise, the K300 ATX/AURES sounds perfect for you!

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2992191 06/16/20 08:12 PM
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Your post today in the Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On thread brought me here ... to your post that I had not read before.

So ... you say that unavailability of a stand for the P125 led you to buy an NV10?
Wow!

That's like saying they didn't have a bun for the hamburger, so you bought a steak.
Or they didn't have a roof-rack for the Corolla, so you bought a Porsche.

Nice! smile

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gamma1734 #2992192 06/16/20 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gamma1734
And your grand action argument: I am wondering: 8 or 9k for a nv10, aren't we very close to baby grand territory anyhow?

Even moreso with the $13+k AvantGrand N3X--you can get a new baby grand with a silent system for the same price. This is why hybrids are a niche product to begin with.

The considerations that tend to drive the hybrid market:
1. Primary silent play - You're almost never going to play at volume, and don't want to deal with the maintenance of an acoustic in order to do so regularly
2. Space - hybrids are still a good bit smaller than a baby grand, and you don't have to worry as much about temp/humidity/environment
3. Tone - you're unsatisfied with how a 4-5ft baby grand sounds and don't want to spend money on one ATM (perhaps you're saving up for that $85k Steinway smile
4. You're fine with a digital, and are simply willing to pay a premium for the action/feel.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
MacMacMac #2992269 06/17/20 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Your post today in the Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On thread brought me here ... to your post that I had not read before.

So ... you say that unavailability of a stand for the P125 led you to buy an NV10?
Wow!

That's like saying they didn't have a bun for the hamburger, so you bought a steak.
Or they didn't have a roof-rack for the Corolla, so you bought a Porsche.

...or you want to register for this forum under the name "Mac"... and end up calling yourself MacMacMac. :-)

But – yes: That's my story in a nutshell. Welcome to my world!


Kawai Novus NV10; Yamaha P-515

Adult beginner
Hugh Sung, Popular Piano course (in progress)
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2992474 06/17/20 06:13 PM
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Today I was in that huge music store in Vienna and I tried the NV5 and the NV10. sadly they don't have acoustic pianos, especially K200, K300, K500 ATX3, respectively.
So I spend a couple of hours on mentioned instruments. I started with the NV5. Right at the beginning of playing through its speakers I noticed the incredible amount of expression I can put more into the music, compared to the CA98 which I currently own. It was just ridiculous, I had to smile throughout the testing at several places because it was so obvious to me (The whole comment is of course my subjective opinion on things).
I played some rather virtuosic works, Kapustin, Chaminade etc. on it. After a while I noticed that my fingers started to hurt a little, which is due to the upright action per definition I guess (and the fact that it is almost brand new and was fairly stiffly regulated).
All things which hindered me as a player to express myself appeared to arise from the very definition and concept of an upright. I grew up with an upright: That was a very good sign backing my experience. Take repetitions for example, they are not extremely consistent as one would maybe want them to be in demanding situations, or imagine a C major chord at Allegro speed in piano in the right hand. That's pretty difficult to be honest. Most of the time I spent on the NV10. The action and pedals are just amazing. It's such a good feeling to press the keys and play on it. I can create a singing tone in a melody in the right hand and it feels like carving it into the keyboard, what a great feel. The ca98 in comparison feels like typing on a keyboard on the PC.
The dynamic range is crazy compared to a ca98, but sadly the speakers are very noticeable to me. If I play a bass note, I just hear a speaker trying to do a bass sound and the highs are so extreme to the ears sometimes. That's the only issue compared to a real instrument (kind of pointless statement I know). HOWEVER I have to say that I believe one can get lost in the instrument after a certain time of playing, which is more important than measuring frequencies and comparing every little detail. But I also have to admit that just physically my flat would be too small to even fit a real grand. I don't know if I can even fit a NV10 theoretically through the tiny doors. Is it assembled? For me as a student the price is another problem and I just cannot find any NV10 in Austria which is sold used now. It's a bit strange... In fact I made a lot of recordings with my laptop in the store with NI The Grandeur. It sounded very good through the plugin, there were no issues. Sometimes I pressed the pedal not deep enough because I am used to the CA98 setting (which is already very good, I was surprised how much better the NV10 even is with that).

Last edited by Gamma1734; 06/17/20 06:16 PM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gamma1734 #2992496 06/17/20 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Gamma1734
Today I was in that huge music store in Vienna and I tried the NV5 and the NV10. sadly they don't have acoustic pianos, especially K200, K300, K500 ATX3, respectively.
Wow, a huge music store that carries hybrid digitals, but no acoustic pianos? In Vienna no less? I would never have guessed such a place exists smile

Originally Posted by Gamma1734
The dynamic range is crazy compared to a ca98, but sadly the speakers are very noticeable to me. If I play a bass note, I just hear a speaker trying to do a bass sound and the highs are so extreme to the ears sometimes. That's the only issue compared to a real instrument (kind of pointless statement I know).
There are quite a few of us who feel this way. I think it's not so much an NV-10 thing as it is just a limitation of speaker technology...

Originally Posted by Gamma1734
HOWEVER I have to say that I believe one can get lost in the instrument after a certain time of playing, which is more important than measuring frequencies and comparing every little detail.
Definitely true. Frankly, I find this is the case with many premium digitals; they lower the barriers required for suspension of disbelief enough where you can just enjoy playing the instrument. Hybrids are especially good at this because they more or less take action realism out of the question; all you have left to ignore is the sound realism.

Originally Posted by Gamma1734
I don't know if I can even fit a NV10 theoretically through the tiny doors. Is it assembled?
That probably depends on where you buy it from. I've actually had two NV-10s delivered to me; one was pre-assembled, the other came in two long boxes, one for the main unit with the housing/speakers, the other for the legs/bottom/subwoofer unit and bench). If pre-assembled, it can also be disassembled by your movers to get through any especially tight spaces. Delivery can be a bit of a hassle but it's 100% solvable.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gamma1734 #2992516 06/17/20 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Gamma1734
I started with the NV5. Right at the beginning of playing through its speakers I noticed the incredible amount of expression I can put more into the music, compared to the CA98 which I currently own. It was just ridiculous, I had to smile throughout the testing at several places because it was so obvious to me (The whole comment is of course my subjective opinion on things).
I played some rather virtuosic works, Kapustin, Chaminade etc. on it. Most of the time I spent on the NV10. The action and pedals are just amazing. It's such a good feeling to press the keys and play on it. I can create a singing tone in a melody in the right hand and it feels like carving it into the keyboard, what a great feel.
The dynamic range is crazy compared to a ca98, but sadly the speakers are very noticeable to me. If I play a bass note, I just hear a speaker trying to do a bass sound and the highs are so extreme to the ears sometimes. That's the only issue compared to a real instrument (kind of pointless statement I know).

Awesome! Was the sound experience on the NV5 vastly superior to the NV10 or comparable?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
Gamma1734 #2992519 06/17/20 10:47 PM
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Hello Gamma1734,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on both the NV5 and NV10.

Originally Posted by Gamma1734
I don't know if I can even fit a NV10 theoretically through the tiny doors. Is it assembled?

As Gombessa notes, this may depend on the dealer. In most cases, the NV10 is delivered in its two shipping boxes (one containing the main body of the piano, the other containing the legs and pedal section) and assembled on site.

The NV5 is delivered in a single shipping box and does not require assembly. Because the NV5 is manufactured as a single-piece instrument, there may be instance whereby it cannot be delivered to the customer's preferred location.

Here are the dimensions of both instruments for reference:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
JoBert #2996509 06/28/20 08:50 PM
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Thoroughly enjoying my new NV10. Found all the old discussions about favorites, startup, and settings very useful. Thanks! Still studying all the various settings options. Anyone care to share go-to favorite settings for headphone play? There are so many options I’m drowning in exploration.


Current: Kawai NV10, Reface CP
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On
PapaJohn #2996523 06/28/20 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PapaJohn
Anyone care to share go-to favorite settings for headphone play? There are so many options I’m drowning in exploration.
I think this really depends on the headphones you are you using, the other piano audio settings that suit you, and your personal preferences around the sound. When you test out the settings, make sure you playtest in the full bass/mod/treble range because some is these settings have more impact at one end or the other.

What I will say is that at the end of the day, I turned all of that off. No headphones volume boost, no SHS mode, no setting for open/closed back (though I use open back), etc. It worked out best just using the default settings for me on my HD598s.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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