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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2993502 06/20/20 04:38 PM
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jeffcat,

I believe I mentioned earlier in the thread that denatured alcohol and everclear are both 190proof. Denatured alcohol has an additive so that its not for human consumption and thus is not subject to higher taxes. Thats why its cheaper. It works great for what we are using it for.

-chris


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Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2993514 06/20/20 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
jeffcat,

I believe I mentioned earlier in the thread that denatured alcohol and everclear are both 190proof. Denatured alcohol has an additive so that its not for human consumption and thus is not subject to higher taxes. Thats why its cheaper. It works great for what we are using it for.

Good to hear, I can't find any of the other alcohols in stock anywhere.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2993699 06/21/20 09:48 AM
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I'm finding the use of chalk problematic. It seems that when i set targets, and try to fill in between the targets, that when i come back to the piano the next day, the targets don't sound as good as the newly juiced notes. So there must be a better way to track tonal qualities than chalk and memory. Maybe a diary?

I suspect on a couple notes that too much power was developed and i overshot my targets. So now how best to reduce the power a little? I'll see what alcohol alone will do, and after that maybe a couple drops of 1:2 applied from the side.

Obviously, I am tweeking the hammers to the nth degree to see the possibilities of this system for making back and forth changes to acquire a very fine voicing. I suppose practicing is just a matter of course to get good at something.

-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2993756 06/21/20 12:03 PM
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Chris,

I am thinking that it is simply a matter of having to allow time and playing the opportunity to "even things out" (if you will) from the changes made. Since all voicing is temporary it needs continual tweaking with various methods to get what we want. Plus, since musicians generally don't play ALL the notes evenly this will by nature bring about uneveness (if that makes any sense).

Personally, I am interested in precisely WHY this works...specifically how and why the low shoulders affect sustain. I have proven to myself that it is a fact, but I just don't get WHY. Any ideas? All the rest I understand...just the input of the lower hammer parts mystifies me (unless it is by making the overall outer tension a bit more flexible...maybe?)

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Toni Goldener #2993757 06/21/20 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Toni Goldener
Simply test it. Start with one drop per string groove. Let it dry. Listen. Repeat it needed.

Jeff,

This is the way to go.

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2993837 06/21/20 04:46 PM
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Peter,

I don't know either, but once you experience the sustain decay and correct it with one application of softener, it's quite telling. And particularly eye opening towards an understanding of tone regulation. I'm aiming for the same experience with the other areas.


The diary method is working quite well. I bought a small notebook and designated a page to a hammer. Writing down notes of any changes I made is better than relying on memory. First i write down the target notes that sound beautiful and use those to check the ones i make changes to. Already coming up with a shorthand code. + 2 drops of 4/4 B72 to FF, +1 drop 1:2 to ff. brush F#6, + 4/2 b-72 To Sus and close.

Going by the quality of the evenness I am now getting, taking breaks and so things can dry before testing relies too much on memory.

-chris

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 06/21/20 04:49 PM.

Chernobieff Piano Restorations
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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2993869 06/21/20 06:49 PM
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Hey Chris - if you have a laptop and Excel, we could make you a spreadsheet template to use.
Down the LH Side list the notes A0 to C8
Across the top - "n" Columns
"n" would be determined by the max # of times you are likely to treat an individual hammer + a few for "just in case"

Enter your codes into the boxes.

Easy to make one per piano for your records.

Others more skilled at spreadsheet programming, feel free to pitch in with a better way.

Last edited by Seeker; 06/21/20 06:50 PM. Reason: Clarity

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2994285 06/23/20 07:33 AM
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@ Chris,

You've mentioned using 40 psi, are you using a standard paint sprayer now. Could we get some action footage to get an idea of pace and deposition using this tool. I've decided to do the shoulder first, so that I don't end up making the upper volume section too soft, as recommended in the original 2 videos.

I've got lots of compressor use experience, but not for paints/sprays.

Last edited by jeffcat; 06/23/20 07:35 AM.
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2994334 06/23/20 10:44 AM
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Jeffcat,

I am using a small spraygun with low psi and turned the lower knob so that the atomization mimicks a spraycan. There doesn't have to be a high psi anyways for this application.

I'll say it again, when starting the hammer voicing process, always start with sustain, listen for any sudden decay and fix that first before moving up the hammer.

Emery and others,
It was mentioned earlier about the B-72 sticking to the bottom of the jar. Here is a solution to that problem. Use a mason jar because you can hook a string over the top without it being chopped off due to the inner cap. And another benefit is no more stirring.

-chris

In the picture I am making a 16oz batch.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 06/23/20 10:50 AM.

Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2994345 06/23/20 11:36 AM
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Thanks Chris. Good idea with the tea bag.

Jeff, I used to do a lot of airbrushing in college but sadly don't have my trusty Paasche airbrush any more. If I were to do this more often, I'd get a double action airbrush with a bottom feed cup. This way you can easily alter the flow of the liquid, and it sprays very precisely. The spray pattern out of an airbrush would be ideal for spraying hammers, and they don't require as much cfm as larger paint guns.


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2994747 06/24/20 01:31 PM
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Question: if you come across a piano that simply sounds ugly, not especially brittle or loud or dull, simply... ugly. How would you outsmart this piano? What way would you choose to bring out things, that are not there? I know, there are limits, but one should try the best. Using the different solutions and mixtures. Any suggestions?

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2994754 06/24/20 01:57 PM
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Reshaping the hammers would be the first thing. After that its go by your ear to determine what ails the hammers, assuming everything else in the piano is up to par of course.


I seem to have settled on these mixtures.

B-72:
4g:4oz used at FF mostly 2 drops at a time between checks when volume is low or felty and no dynamics.
4g:8oz Juice from top (pp) down to FF. To increase volume and brighten the color and close the tone.
4g:16oz same as above. or on strike line
4g:32oz just on strike line.

Also use straight alcohol to blush it back a little


Softener:

1:2 (all,alcohol)
1:4:1(all, alcohol, water

The steel brush is very useful for evening out the tone and cleaning the hammer.

I usual finish off with 600, 1500 grit sandpaper.

-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Toni Goldener #2994778 06/24/20 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Toni Goldener
Question: if you come across a piano that simply sounds ugly, not especially brittle or loud or dull, simply... ugly. How would you outsmart this piano? What way would you choose to bring out things, that are not there? I know, there are limits, but one should try the best. Using the different solutions and mixtures. Any suggestions?

Slap a sticker on it that says, Tuned-For-Jazz, whenever someone comes to play it, just bob your head and make sounds like you've just eaten some Ben and Jerries Icecream.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2994810 06/24/20 04:27 PM
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4oz is about 1.2 dl, right?

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2994824 06/24/20 05:07 PM
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Dl stands for deciliter, right Toni? And cl stands for centiliter, right?

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2994918 06/24/20 09:32 PM
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4 fluid oz = 0.118294 liters, so move the decimal as needed.


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2994938 06/24/20 11:32 PM
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Yes, dl is deciliter and cl is centiliter.
So 4 oz is 1.18 dl.
Chris,
The strongest solution is 4 grams to 1.18 dl. From there you add alcohol to make it thinner.
Your 4g:4oz is the main solution to create all the others.
So my 1.6 g:1dl is about your 4g:8oz, right? Once you mentioned that the 1.6g:1dl has hardly any effect, but your 4g:16oz and 4g:32oz are even much more thin, right?

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2995035 06/25/20 09:11 AM
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Toni,

Yes, my strongest solution is the 4g:4oz. I have a little jar that has ounce markings on it, and so it is easy to add to the thick solution to make it thinner as needed. I also don't have to weigh the B-72 pellets anymore as the 4g is a heaping tablespoon.

I barely recall saying something about the thinner solution having no affect, but that was regarding spraying. Applying with a hypo oiler is a different story as it puts more product in the hammer. So when i started using a hypo oiler the solutions got thinner. You introduced the 1.6g:100cl =1.6g :33oz aka "toni's magic wand". Based on what you were saying I made a thin version 4g:32oz =4g:94cl (not quite as thin as yours, but easy and quick for me to make) and tried it like you suggested right on the strike point and found the small change in character to be of value in some applications when applied with a hypo oiler one drop each line.

-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2995047 06/25/20 10:26 AM
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@ Chris, Is there a way to describe the relative firmness for the key areas of the hammers by hand-feel.

For example, when we lightly pinch the felt with our fingers, if ff is to be a 6, then pp would be a 4, the sustain 5, openclose 4, Something like this ?

Last edited by jeffcat; 06/25/20 10:27 AM.
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2995406 06/26/20 10:41 AM
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Just had a grand that the whole bass section was fixed quickly. The bass was a touch too bright. I made one pass with with the 1:2 softener. After 15 minutes i judged it to be too soft. After listening, i decided the 4g:16oz B-72 would give it just enough bite. After one pass the whole bass got a "facelift". Still amazes me how fast this stuff is. And accurate once you get use to how the hammers react to the different ratios.


Here is another thing i am doing ( I may or may not have touched on this before).

I am adding Lavender essential oil to the B-72. The reason is because it has a rather industrial plastic smell i don't like. In a 32 oz. jar I am adding about 20 drops. Leaves the hammers smelling good too.

In the softener i am adding Titanium Dioxide powder. Just a pinch in a 4oz bottle. I'll have to calculate in the future how much that equates to in a 32 ounce jar. Off the top of my head i'm thinking about a 1/4 teaspoon for 32 oz. jar. Anyways, it should remain transparent and not become opaque like paint. The reason i am doing this is i have noticed that when the 1:2 sits in a jar it has a yellow color to it. Also, it will make the hammers have a yellow tint as well. The titanium dioxide fixes that. Plus having the softener and b-72 solutions a different color helps picking up the right bottle as they can look similar in small bottles.


-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
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