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Overpull
#2991650 06/15/20 09:57 AM
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If we do an overpull, we raise the note above the right pitch in an percentage share depending on how flat it was before and on the area. In the bass-section ca. 20%, in the middle ca. 30% an in the treble ca. 40%. So also do the softwares with overpull-function.

But in terms of the sequence of tuning the strings, the tension of the rest responds in a different way. When I have pulled 2/3 of all strings, the rest is flatter than before. If this rest is e.g. in the treble, I can't belive, that then 40% is still the right value. If I go the opposite (begin in treble), I would also overpull 40% from a less flat note.

So my conclusion is: the sequenz of tuning matters. I most like this way: pulling the whole piano just one string per note, than the next and so on.

How do you do and what do the ETDs prescribe?

Last edited by Andymania; 06/15/20 09:59 AM.

excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
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Re: Overpull
Andymania #2991656 06/15/20 10:24 AM
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Or imagine another extrem example: the piano was 50 cents flat. You have been overpulled all notes in the correct amount, so they reach the absolute correct pitch. But only one note, you didn't: the middle-C. Now it is flatter than -50 cent. If you pull it to +15 cent (30% of 50) or higher, it stays to sharp. It never sinks to the right pitch...

Last edited by Andymania; 06/15/20 10:26 AM.

excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
Re: Overpull
Andymania #2991657 06/15/20 10:38 AM
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I did my overpull over the past week. My piano started at 80cents flat across the board.

I started just going up to 440, this is my first ever tuning, I did not want to explode the piano.

It sounded ok for about a few hours, then the next day I checked it, it was ~ 15-30 cents flat.

I did it again, up to 440, this time, the following day it was ~ 5-15 cents flat.

3rd time, I pulled everything 5c above 440. Next day, Between the bass bridge up to F5 (end of tenor bridge), it is now almost exactly at target within 1-3 cents. But for the Treble bridge G5 and up, I still have strings that are very off, some up to 25c flat.

I plan to deal with this today. with a more aggressive overpull on the treble as recommended by Hakki and others on the forum..

Last edited by jeffcat; 06/15/20 10:47 AM.
Re: Overpull
Andymania #2991665 06/15/20 10:59 AM
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Quote
I plan to deal with this today. with a more aggressive overpull on the treble as recommended by Hakki and others on the forum..

Not for high treble.

I said apply 35% from F5 to F6.

But from F6 to C8 gradually drop from 35% at F6 to 15% at C8.

Re: Overpull
Andymania #2991684 06/15/20 11:50 AM
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I simply overpull no more than 10 cents or so. I do not want to risk intentional or accidental deformation of wire. Since it takes no more than 30 minutes to do it I simply do it again as needed. Pulling 30%-40% (e.g. 30-40 cents above for a 100 cent pitch raise) above brings you dangerously close to the danger zone. I STOPPED doing this about 10 years ago. You cannot see or hear the damage immediately. It shows up over time.

Same procedure when I install new strings. No more than 10 cents sharp...period.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Last edited by P W Grey; 06/15/20 11:51 AM.

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Re: Overpull
Andymania #2991745 06/15/20 03:26 PM
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I seem to recall the instructions on Verituner suggesting to start a pitch raise using their software at the bottom of the treble bridge, then all the way up, then down the bass bridge. Others do differently. Fine tuning with this software suggests setting an A3-A4 temperament, going all the way up, then G#3 downward. My mentor does not do this, and other ETDs suggest different approaches.

I suppose it's a case of doing enough pitch raises and seeing how the piano responds, then deciding what works best.


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Re: Overpull
P W Grey #2991762 06/15/20 04:26 PM
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@ PW Grey,

Is there a reference for the absolute max tension somewhere in cents over target values ?

Last edited by jeffcat; 06/15/20 04:27 PM.
Re: Overpull
Andymania #2991764 06/15/20 04:46 PM
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Al Sanderson (I believe) did the testing for this a long time ago - I'm pretty sure this is the basis for the ETD approach to pitch-raising. The results from testing verified that the most stable approach using variations of the percentages that have been listed came from tuning A0-C8 - tuning unisons as you go - Left, center, right string when possible to the top.

The increasing percentage numbers (which are influenced by personal lever technique and piano model) take into account the changing pressure making higher (untuned) notes drop more during the pitch raise.

The different ETDs may have individual approaches, but seem to use this model. (The Verituner model doesn't start from A0 because it needs data from the middle of the piano to better target the bass strings. Some users will use a saved tuning from another piano (or template) to be able to pitch raise from A0-C8 for the first pass.)

Ron Koval

Re: Overpull
Andymania #2991796 06/15/20 06:42 PM
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Pitch raise can take 15 to 20 min. Overpull can save a pass.
I don’t do it.


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Re: Overpull
Andymania #2991809 06/15/20 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Andymania
When I have pulled 2/3 of all strings, the rest is flatter than before. If this rest is e.g. in the treble, I can't belive, that then 40% is still the right value. If I go the opposite (begin in treble), I would also overpull 40% from a less flat note.

First off, you're right, the order matters. Typically the order is to start at A0 and go to C8 (note: this is not the case for PianoMeter which recommends starting at the break.)

But to get to the core of your question, it also matters when you take the initial pitch measurement. Some apps have you take pre-measurements and calculate the pitch raise from that. Others take a quick measurement when you first start tuning a note, and then calculate the overpull from there. So for the latter example, if the treble of a piano is -100 cents flat before you start tuning but sinks to -140 cents by the time you tune up to the treble, then the 40% overpull will be calculated from -140 instead of -100. (So you'd hypothetically tune the notes to +56 cents instead of +40 cents...obviously you wouldn't do that in practice, this is just an example with easy numbers.) If you use pre-measurements and calculate from there you'd have to use an overpull greater than 40% to compensate, presumably about 56% instead of 40%.


Anthony Willey, RPT
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Willey Piano Tuning
Re: Overpull
jeffcat #2991828 06/15/20 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
@ PW Grey,

Is there a reference for the absolute max tension somewhere in cents over target values ?


There probably is somewhere but I don't know where at this point. The thing is you can't tell what TENSION you are putting on the wire when tuning. Yes, there is safety built into the scale, however this is based on the piano being at pitch, and the point of wire deformation is lower than its breaking point. You can't tell when you reach hysteresis by listening. This is why I decided to discontinue the practice of 30% overpulling since in the process I might inadvertently pull something much too far without realizing it. Once it's done...its done, and there's no reversing it. I simply stay well away from that threshold and spend an extra 30 minutes or less to do it again. It's better for the piano (and I don't do it for free).


Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
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