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Periodically, I will mix a VST and/or IrealPro rhythms with my MP11SE digital piano.

One way I can do this is to send each of these sounds into my mixer and then the output to my monitors.

Another way to do it is to send all sounds EXCEPT my mp11se sound into the mixer and then the output into my MP11SE and then the output from the MP11SE into my monitors.

The second method gives me a much more powerful and (I think) cleaner sounding result.

I am guessing that it is because the MP11SE has a fairly powerful internal amplifier that gives the better result.

Make sense ?

What does ‘more powerful’ mean? Louder? Different sound timbre?

Much louder.

The way I understand is in the second method you mixing the piano sound of the MP11SE with the VST. Also if you're not using the MP11SE speaker, you're not using the amplifier. You're using the pre-amp of the MP11SE.

Well, since the MP11SE does not have internal speakers .... you are probably right in calling the power unit the pre-amp.

And to be clear .... I am mixing everything (except MP11SE output) inside the mixer and then sending it into the MP11SE.

Then, the output of the MP11SE is hooked into the external speakers (Focal Monitors).

The only reason I am bringing this to this forum is because with my limited experience with electronics I surmised that the "normal" use of a mixer was to send every sound into the mixer and then send the output of the mixer straight to the speaker system.

That does not seem to work very well for me, so I switched the order a bit and it worked much better.

Seems odd to me.

If I were to bet, I'd guess that the ratios of the sounds' volume was different when you used the mixer, than when you "pre-mixed" the non-MP11SE sounds, and then fed them into the MP11SE.

I can't say whether they were louder, or softer.

The theory is that mixing is a _linear_ process:

. . . If you can't match the sound you like ("pre-mix" the external sounds, put them into
. . . . the "Line In" input of the MP7SE)
. . . . by changing the gains of the individual mixer channels (_including_ the MP11SE sound),

. . . then:

. . . . . Either your mixer, or the MP11SE, is introducing a non-linear process -- distortion -- into the signal chain.

Most mixers have "overload" lights, that tell you when things are going wrong. But (for example) my Behringer Xenyx 802 has such lights on the main output, but _not_ on the individual input channels --

. . . so you can overload its inputs, without any warning that that's happening.

Charles ....

If I understand what you are getting at ....

It sounds like you believe things should work either way and I probably was overloading one or more of the sounds as I was putting them into the mixer in the first method and that was causing the problem.

The MP11se does not have an internal amplifier at all so that could not possibly be the reason. If I understand your post correctly, your second method yielding a louder signal could come from the VST sounds getting a signal boost going through the mixer then a second boost going through the MP11se. If you're pleased with method 2, by all means, leave it that way. Experimenting is always fun, but I usually prefer the most direct path possible.

Well, if not an amplifier then something else (pre-amp) because there is a volume slider on the MP11SE that amplifies the output, including what has come in through the INPUT slot.

In the scenario where the MP output is going directly to the speakers, which output jacks are you using? The 1/4 inch jacks are controlled by the main volume knob. But... the XLR jacks are not. They always pump out full volume.

Yes ... I understand.

I am going out to speakers through the 1/4 inch jacks.

Have you tried to look for a way to raise the level of your VST signal before it leaves the laptop instead of having to go through 2 pre-amps to get the level you need?

That is something to think about.

I could increase the volume level within the VST software.

Not sure if I can increase volume with computer volume slider but I could investigate that.

These are things I will look into if/when I make another attempt at method 1.

Right now, I am happy with what I have.

However, I may need to try method 1 again for reasons I will not go into now.

Thanks

Yes, that's part of it.

But it might be that the _ratio_ of sounds is different, in the two methods. That can happen without any overload, just by how the channel gains, and main-output gain, is adjusted.

The line input on the MP11SE is designed to accept headphone line level (eg smartphone audio out), consumer line level (eg CD player audio out), and pro line level (eg audio out of a pro-level keyboard or mixer). Thus, it needs to have a pre-amp to bring the lower line level of a headphone output jack or consumer audio device up to the keyboard's line level. (Kawai does not publish a sensitivity spec for this input, however).

When you run the mixer output to the keyboard input you have an input that has already been brought up to pro line level by the mixer and the keyboard preamp for the line input can amplify it even more. Nothing magical is going on.

If routing everything to the mixer and the mixer output to monitors does not produce cleaner sound it likely means that the mixer preamps are fairly average quality so that gain staging at the mixer and using the keyboard input preamp for the remaining gain is producing a cleaner signal.

Well, this probably qualifies as "average quality".

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Mix5--mackie-mix5-5-channel-compact-mixer

By routing the mixer output to the keyboard input you are using two preamps instead of one to bring the signal up to line level. The downside is the accumulated distortion of two op-amps. But this allows for gain staging where both op-amps are set at lower levels where they distort less.

Routing the mix from thr computer to the keyboard will also be two mix stages.

What output from the mixer are you routing to thr monitors or keyboard?

The best information I have is that the Kawai will digitize the input, mix with the piano in the digital realm, then route the mix to a DAC and then to an output stage op-amp.(Perhaps Kawai James can confirm). You should be able to get good results with just the tabletoo mixer by matching line level with your monitors and gain staging between the mixer and monitors.

I am sure you are trying to help and I thank you for that.

However, I have no idea what any of this means.

In any event, things are fine for me right now and I will leave it be for a bit.

When it comes to gain:

1- Your mixer's gain for each instrument and the master volume, EQs
2- Your MP11's line-in gain and EQ.

I hope you recognize that louder doesn't mean cleaner. Your signal can be too hot and clip without being clear.

How do you make sure that the dB output of your MP11 is identical to your mixer?!