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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2988393 06/06/20 09:06 AM
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Andrew,

Bear in mind that Toni is discussing taking a piano that basically sounds BAD to pleasant and enjoyable in short order. Not every nuance can be be addressed in such a procedure. Now, I think you are aware of this but I'm saying it so that others do not get the wrong idea. And since everyone hears things differently, and recordings do not reflect the true acoustic situation...you know what I mean.

I too have been experimenting with this procedure and initial results are highly satisfactory...as Chris stated 'never in my wildest dreams...so quickly and effectively...' Pretty amazing stuff.

Pwg


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2988461 06/06/20 12:47 PM
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Interesting development of the Ronsen hammers. After i had selected some notes as targets and was voicing to even out the tone across the keyboard, i was having trouble in the 5th octave and All the Unichords.

First the 5th octave:
I have now made 3 passes with the B-72 and I let it sit overnight. Checking this morning, all notes except for two have just started to have a ping sound. The power came with it so now i just have to remove the ping and those notes will blend nicely to the target notes. The two notes that are different have brighten up some but sound odd at a ff blow. This is telling me that i need to do a soaking pass to have the B-72 wich a little farther down to build the power. One more pass should do it.

The Unichords:

The 4th pass finally brought the notes up to actually also create a ping. Funny thing about a ping noise in the bass, it kinda sounds like an agraffe whining problem. Which is not the case because i heard the notes before i started voicing. So now i'll use a little softener. I think i will try Toni's technique of applying a small amount in the string line.

-chris

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 06/06/20 12:49 PM.

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
OE1FEU #2988499 06/06/20 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
But what exactly does it do? If there is a change, physics is involved. If using chemicals on a hammer changes the physical characteristics of the material, those changes should be looked at and described. So far it sounds like black magic and secret sauce.
Scientific methods allow for empirical observations of things for which the mechanism is not understood. Scientific explanations of the tone of a Stradivarius violin are fairly recent and still incomplete, but violinists would not reject such an instrument due to lack of scientific explanation for the instrument’s sound.


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2988567 06/06/20 05:34 PM
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Chris

I could use the brush with the 1-1-1 solution for the final even out of the tone. I would recommend only one short stroke over the strike point. I somehow massage with my finger the strike point after application of the 1-1-1 solution, like rubbing the hammer dry with my finger. I had good success with somewhat pingy notes.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Sweelinck #2988571 06/06/20 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
But what exactly does it do? If there is a change, physics is involved. If using chemicals on a hammer changes the physical characteristics of the material, those changes should be looked at and described. So far it sounds like black magic and secret sauce.
Scientific methods allow for empirical observations of things for which the mechanism is not understood. Scientific explanations of the tone of a Stradivarius violin are fairly recent and still incomplete, but violinists would not reject such an instrument due to lack of scientific explanation for the instrument’s sound.

So, a stenciled Chinese concert grand equipped with natural felt Abel hammers that were treated with unknown chemical substances such as softeners and hair spray as hardeners is now the equivalent to a Stradivarius?

As I said before, I am left speechless.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2988576 06/06/20 06:00 PM
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In the videos, Todd used a technique that I was not in agreement with.

The steel wire brush.

Turns out I needed it today. Building up the tone with the B-72 (as mentioned in a previous post) pings were just starting to develop on a couple notes. I was getting ready to try Toni's technique to remove the pings and i grabbed the hammer to apply some softener on the strike point. But, as i grabbed the hammer i felt they were crusty( overspray?). All of them were. So i grabbed the steel brush and brushed all the hammers. Not like Todd though. He was vigorous and brushed to and fro. I decided to take it easy and brush lightly in one direction (towards me). I put the piano back in and gave it a try. It removed all the pings and softened the tone a little. Worked great!!

-chris

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 06/06/20 06:02 PM.

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2988578 06/06/20 06:02 PM
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Do you guys have any opinions on storage? It would be nice to mix up larger batches of the solutions beforehand, but I don't know how well they keep, especially the B72. Does it come out of solution if it sits for a while?


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2988583 06/06/20 06:17 PM
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Hi Emery,

I keep a batch in a 32oz Mason Jar. I have noticed a little settling, but a quick shake fixed it. I also use the squeeze containers from pianotek, that i squeeze directly into the spraygun with. A while back I had just filled two bottles, 1 with softener solution, the other with B-72. I got distracted with a phone call before i could label them. Luckily, they both have a different shade of color.
-chris


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
OE1FEU #2988617 06/06/20 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by OE1FEU
But what exactly does it do? If there is a change, physics is involved. If using chemicals on a hammer changes the physical characteristics of the material, those changes should be looked at and described. So far it sounds like black magic and secret sauce.
Scientific methods allow for empirical observations of things for which the mechanism is not understood. Scientific explanations of the tone of a Stradivarius violin are fairly recent and still incomplete, but violinists would not reject such an instrument due to lack of scientific explanation for the instrument’s sound.

So, a stenciled Chinese concert grand equipped with natural felt Abel hammers that were treated with unknown chemical substances such as softeners and hair spray as hardeners is now the equivalent to a Stradivarius?

As I said before, I am left speechless.

I’m not sure what led to your inference, but it is not a valid inference from the text of mine that you quoted. If something works empirically, the fact that you don’t understand the mechanism of how it works does not invalidate the result. If the stenciled grand is made to sound and play beautifully, then that is valid. The top piano manufacturers are not exactly forthcoming with putting their designs and technology out in the open to be scrutinized by the scientific community.


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
David Boyce #2988619 06/07/20 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
Gretel,

In this thread Toni was voicing an upright piano . Maybe you could direct a question to him.

-chris

Originally Posted by David Boyce
It's not difficult to take an upright action out! (unless it's a spinet).

Thanks to both of you. Looks like it‘s suitable also for an upright. BTW I also now saw this video above with Toni‘s upright. Thanks again.


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Seeker #2989492 06/09/20 04:19 PM
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In the video it sounds a bit glassy, but in reality it’s clear and warm. I should use an external microphone for recordings with the iPhone.
The voicing was done quickly before the tuning. I am looking for a way to do a “one” pass voicing procedure during a tuning appointment.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2989497 06/09/20 04:43 PM
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Today I came across a Bösendorfer upright bought NEW in December 2018. Its sustain was so short that even the customer could hear it immediately after I mentioned that sustain problem. I didn’t spray anything because the piano was 40 cents flat and time somewhat limited. But my question is: can you imagine only spraying the shoulders and take care of the strike point so that there no 1:2 solution will soak in? Only improving the sustain? That was done in a few minutes. She loves the way the piano sounds (color). So no need to go on the tips.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Toni Goldener #2989515 06/09/20 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Toni Goldener
Today I came across a Bösendorfer upright bought NEW in December 2018. Its sustain was so short that even the customer could hear it immediately after I mentioned that sustain problem. I didn’t spray anything because the piano was 40 cents flat and time somewhat limited. But my question is: can you imagine only spraying the shoulders and take care of the strike point so that there no 1:2 solution will soak in? Only improving the sustain? That was done in a few minutes. She loves the way the piano sounds (color). So no need to go on the tips.

Why don't you call the good people at Bösendorfer and ask them what they think the right way to treat their hammers in a piano is?

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2989555 06/09/20 09:15 PM
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Toni,

Absolutely, Just spraying on the shoulders will improve the sustain without affecting the color of the tips. The only difficulty is in choosing the 1:2 solution or the 1:1:1. If you are concerned about the tips, a little trick you could try is to get a roll of 1/4" masking tape to cover the tips while spraying. Interesting, that a new piano would have sustain problems since that is easy to fix before it left the factory.

-chris


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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2989568 06/09/20 11:23 PM
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Update On the Steinway Model A I am voicing. I've been noticing that when i spray, i'm not getting into the volume area like i want to. By the time volume increases the color is to pingy. And then a back and forth ensues. I figured out that the 1 Tablespoon B-72 to 2oz Alcohol is great for spraying for color, but is too thick for manipulating the volume area. I therefore started reducing the mixture and made a small bottle of 1 Tablespoon B-72 to 6 oz. alcohol. This is so far proving to be a good ratio when wanting to build up volume and the color is too soft. If the color is bright and volume is low, then the only solution is to apply the 1 Tablespoon to 6oz B-72 from the sides trying to avoid it wicking up to the strike line. Also, applying this thinned mixture directly to the strike line when wanting to brighten the color is working for small tone changes.

When playing a couple pieces i realized that the bass was too loud as compared to the tenor and treble. I want to try a thinner version of the 1:2 All softener so i tried a 1: 4 and it worked very well because i wanted to make a small change in volume. 1 quick pass was all it took.

I'm only left with two notes that are causing me trouble. D5 and Eb5, the two notes on either side of the strut. It seems like i got to figure out how to reduce volume and increase the color at the same time. I applied softener to the sides of the two hammers in the volume section of the hammer and I will see if that had any effect tomorrow.

Here's a pic of after just applying the thin B-72 from the top into the volume area.
[Linked Image]

This picture is to help clarify the hammer voicing sections i use to describe were i apply hardners or softners.
[Linked Image]

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 06/09/20 11:25 PM.

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Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2989576 06/10/20 12:56 AM
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For more volume I stopped spraying! I use a b72 solution and apply it with a pipette on 10 and 2 o’clock without letting it go up to the strike point. The result of this is more power and no change of color or only a slight change of color. If I need a brighter color I use my b72 1.6 grams to 100 cl. That is my magic wand in the middle and the treble. The bass needs a slightly stronger version.
To reduce the just too loud volume without changing color, I needle from the side at 2 and 10 o’clock half way between the hammer moulding and the hammer surface. One stitch on each side only!! So I have never a pingy sound.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Toni Goldener #2989602 06/10/20 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Toni Goldener
I needle from the side at 2 and 10 o’clock half way between the hammer moulding and the hammer surface.

You mean the flat side, not the round edge? That area, where the text is written on in the image above?

Last edited by Andymania; 06/10/20 03:59 AM.

excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2989606 06/10/20 04:19 AM
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To the left and to the right of”Volume”. Always taking care and observe that it soaks not to the strike point. Sometimes a tiny bit to the edge of the strike point if the sound is already dull.

Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Chernobieff Piano #2989684 06/10/20 10:39 AM
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I wrote about needleing.

Last edited by Andymania; 06/10/20 10:39 AM.

excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
Re: Dissecting the Tone of Piano Hammers
Andymania #2989861 06/10/20 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Andymania
I wrote about needleing.

That makes you a heretic.

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