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Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
KevinM #2987362 06/03/20 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Then cry when realizing I've not saved a penny for the month.

I can relate to that...

I'm about to get the full version myself.

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
johnstaf #2987363 06/03/20 10:54 AM
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I'm about to get the full version myself. I'm waiting for a double-charge on my credit card to be sorted out first. It usually takes a couple of days. [Chomping-at-bit smiley]

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/03/20 10:58 AM.
Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Paul Kopf #2987365 06/03/20 10:59 AM
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I was justifying the BI full purchase by getting a refund on Concert D standard, but I think I'm going all in and keeping Concert D as well. Bad me.

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Paul Kopf #2987374 06/03/20 11:17 AM
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It's a slippery slope...

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Paul Kopf #2987380 06/03/20 11:39 AM
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Are you sure these purchases will make you happy, and instill in you a pleasant feeling of contentment at having finally arrived where you intended to go?

(Says the envious guy whose real reason for not getting a sampled Bõsendorfer is his internet connection's terribly slow download speeds ...)


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite, Production Voices Estate Grand
Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
johnstaf #2987394 06/03/20 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
There is an algorithmic reverb built it.

Convolution reverb recreates specific acoustic environments, but in this case you have the natural ambience.

John is right, here is what Synchron Pianos manual say:

"Reverb On/Off: Switch the integrated algorithmic Reverb ON/OFF. This reverb is designed to “sweeten” the sound of Synchron Stage Vienna, much like in a real-world mixing situation."

For pianos recorded at Stage B there is also an additional reverb slider for 2 more sophisticated reverbs:

"In a Plate Reverb, vibrations are generated with a metal plate.
With the help of a transducer, the information is recorded and results
in a two-dimensional reverb.
...
The Room Reverb can be used to create virtual spaces and reverberation.
Unlike the Plate Reverb, the Room Reverb is three-dimensional."

For more details look into manual.

Last edited by VladK; 06/03/20 12:17 PM.

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Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Keybender #2987415 06/03/20 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Keybender
I bought the standard library and it plays great - the only gripe I have is that the whole thing get a bit lost in resonance in the mid range occasionally - is there something I can do about that... somehow reduce effect the pedal has?
(or use less pedal, but that's a different discussion smile )

It does play well but I'm also sometimes bothered by a wash of resonance as though the sustain is out of control. I found the same with the VSL Bosendorfer upright which I eventually returned for a refund.

Here's what I found with both the BI and the upright:-

Play a single note, then press the sustain pedal and release the note while maintaining the sustain....all as expected.

Now press the sustain pedal, play a single note and keep the key depressed while maintaining the sustain. We get the expected resonance from all 88 notes since the sustain pedal is still depressed. That's ok. Now I release the pedal while keeping the key depressed. Why am I still hearing the resonance from all 88 notes?

I've tried this on my other libraries and, as expected, once the sustain pedal is released the dampers will drop on those other 87 undepressed keys.

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
dire tonic #2987426 06/03/20 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by Keybender
I bought the standard library and it plays great - the only gripe I have is that the whole thing get a bit lost in resonance in the mid range occasionally - is there something I can do about that... somehow reduce effect the pedal has?
(or use less pedal, but that's a different discussion smile )

It does play well but I'm also sometimes bothered by a wash of resonance as though the sustain is out of control. I found the same with the VSL Bosendorfer upright which I eventually returned for a refund.

Here's what I found with both the BI and the upright:-

Play a single note, then press the sustain pedal and release the note while maintaining the sustain....all as expected.

Now press the sustain pedal, play a single note and keep the key depressed while maintaining the sustain. We get the expected resonance from all 88 notes since the sustain pedal is still depressed. That's ok. Now I release the pedal while keeping the key depressed. Why am I still hearing the resonance from all 88 notes?

I've tried this on my other libraries and, as expected, once the sustain pedal is released the dampers will drop on those other 87 undepressed keys.


Great observation - Somewhat disappointing - even the old Ravenscroft does it right.

Still doesn't explain my problem since I just realized I have the sympathetic settings to -inf...

Last edited by Keybender; 06/03/20 01:36 PM.
Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Keybender #2987430 06/03/20 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Keybender
Indeed - that might be it. Great observation. Somewhat disappointing - even the old Ravenscroft does it right.
Still doesn't explay my problem since I just realized I have the sympathetic settings to -inf...

Me too (-inf) and while my pedalling is quite a bit less than perfect I'd still expect what on the face of it seems to be rogue behaviour, to sometimes produce this unwanted effect.

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
dire tonic #2987433 06/03/20 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by Keybender
Indeed - that might be it. Great observation. Somewhat disappointing - even the old Ravenscroft does it right.
Still doesn't explay my problem since I just realized I have the sympathetic settings to -inf...

Me too (-inf) and while my pedalling is quite a bit less than perfect I'd still expect what on the face of it seems to be rogue behaviour, to sometimes produce this unwanted effect.

On a sidenote - at least the two Bösendorfer uprights I have played so far also showed a tendency to be very "resonancy". So maybe part of the answer is in the actual instrument if this property extends to their grand pianos...

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
dire tonic #2987476 06/03/20 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Now press the sustain pedal, play a single note and keep the key depressed while maintaining the sustain. We get the expected resonance from all 88 notes since the sustain pedal is still depressed. That's ok. Now I release the pedal while keeping the key depressed. Why am I still hearing the resonance from all 88 notes?

Strange. It looks like a bug specific to Synchron Bosendorfers only?

I do not have VSL BI yet, but can reproduce it with their Upright.

I also checked with VSL Steinway - I press the sustain pedal, play a key and keep it depressed, release the pedal, and hear the timbre change - it loses some high harmonics - therefore it looks like resonances go away. Depending on the key it can be noticeable more or less, and with some keys it is hard to tell the difference (well, my ears are not as good as it were 40 years ago), but I can't reproduce it.
The effect for Steinway is similar to other libs.

Or this might be a mix of string and body resonance where string resonance goes away but the body one is still powerful enough? What value do you use for Sympathetic?

Last edited by VladK; 06/03/20 03:26 PM.

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Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
dire tonic #2987542 06/03/20 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by Keybender
I bought the standard library and it plays great - the only gripe I have is that the whole thing get a bit lost in resonance in the mid range occasionally - is there something I can do about that... somehow reduce effect the pedal has?
(or use less pedal, but that's a different discussion smile )

It does play well but I'm also sometimes bothered by a wash of resonance as though the sustain is out of control. I found the same with the VSL Bosendorfer upright which I eventually returned for a refund.

Here's what I found with both the BI and the upright:-

Play a single note, then press the sustain pedal and release the note while maintaining the sustain....all as expected.

Now press the sustain pedal, play a single note and keep the key depressed while maintaining the sustain. We get the expected resonance from all 88 notes since the sustain pedal is still depressed. That's ok. Now I release the pedal while keeping the key depressed. Why am I still hearing the resonance from all 88 notes?

I've tried this on my other libraries and, as expected, once the sustain pedal is released the dampers will drop on those other 87 undepressed keys.

Yes, the Steinway does the same. Take the F sharp 4 key as an example and listen. Also you can notice a slight tuning issue with the note when the pedal is pressed. You don't hear it when playing music, but if a single note, it's present, and I can confirm this with my ears... But it has a nice tune and I play on it always, so I still use it -- but the issue is indeed there.

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Paul Kopf #2987566 06/03/20 06:37 PM
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1) I can also say that the Bösendorfer Upright is a little bit more difficult to mix that the grands. Especially the Ribbon mic can make the sound very mid heavy or, well, muddy. I had to fiddle around to find a nice crisp setting. Also it's one of the few instrumens I have where I would put the velocity curve on my DP even to light, to get more values than 100 (most DPs cap the output around 100 apparently on 'normal' setting), because in the 100+ range there is still happening a lot in colour. I think thats really great from them bc on a real upright you just cannot play a 20 or sometimes even 30, let's be honest. On a grand it's possible though. However I always feel awkward to play a 117 or 124 on a grand because at some point it just feels disproportionate to... basically whatever you played before or after. I'd just it for literally 'ffff' special effect passages, normally up to 105 is completely fine, even for Liszt, Chopin Alkan etc.

2) To the discussion about resonances: I am not entirely sure if I understood it correctly but I had a similar problem which turned out to be solved by reducing the Release Sample Volume. That knob can be found on the right page, and the name is RS level I think. Take the player perspective, then in my opinion the Release sample vol is far too loud. I turn it down like 7, 8 dB to get a significantly better result. In my ears it has nothing to do with the Symphathetic Resonance samples (which I quite like actually, I don't understand the general dissatisfaction with them). As I mentioned in another post, turning it to even -inf gave me a Vienna Imperial sound which was very (interesting+surprising)/2

3) I want to say again that if you can afford it and regularly play the piano, I would buy the full library. You basically then have one of the very best instruments on the market. I really don't earn a lot, as a student, but for me it is just worth it. Like, it really drags me to the piano again, like a magnet. The Garritan sounds amazing, but I had subtle issues with playability recently (I mean playing it for hours everyday with all kinds of music shows the negative points after a while!), so it's a very welcome alternative. Especially with the release sample reduced it's very close to the perfect grand for me. As with computer graphics I believe there can still be achieved a lot in realism up to 2030 or so, but man is it fun to play.

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Paul Kopf #2987580 06/03/20 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Gamma1734
1) I can also say that the Bösendorfer Upright is a little bit more difficult to mix that the grands. Especially the Ribbon mic can make the sound very mid heavy or, well, muddy. I had to fiddle around to find a nice crisp setting. Also it's one of the few instrumens I have where I would put the velocity curve on my DP even to light, to get more values than 100 (most DPs cap the output around 100 apparently on 'normal' setting), because in the 100+ range there is still happening a lot in colour. I think thats really great from them bc on a real upright you just cannot play a 20 or sometimes even 30, let's be honest. On a grand it's possible though. However I always feel awkward to play a 117 or 124 on a grand because at some point it just feels disproportionate to... basically whatever you played before or after. I'd just it for literally 'ffff' special effect passages, normally up to 105 is completely fine, even for Liszt, Chopin Alkan etc.

2) To the discussion about resonances: I am not entirely sure if I understood it correctly but I had a similar problem which turned out to be solved by reducing the Release Sample Volume. That knob can be found on the right page, and the name is RS level I think. Take the player perspective, then in my opinion the Release sample vol is far too loud. I turn it down like 7, 8 dB to get a significantly better result. In my ears it has nothing to do with the Symphathetic Resonance samples (which I quite like actually, I don't understand the general dissatisfaction with them). As I mentioned in another post, turning it to even -inf gave me a Vienna Imperial sound which was very (interesting+surprising)/2

3) I want to say again that if you can afford it and regularly play the piano, I would buy the full library. You basically then have one of the very best instruments on the market. I really don't earn a lot, as a student, but for me it is just worth it. Like, it really drags me to the piano again, like a magnet. The Garritan sounds amazing, but I had subtle issues with playability recently (I mean playing it for hours everyday with all kinds of music shows the negative points after a while!), so it's a very welcome alternative. Especially with the release sample reduced it's very close to the perfect grand for me. As with computer graphics I believe there can still be achieved a lot in realism up to 2030 or so, but man is it fun to play.

Hi Gamma1734,

I recently found your YouTube channel to be amazing! You really deserve more views. How long have you been playing the pianos? It's really amazing that you are able to sight read new pieces (sometimes a whole set) by only playing through it a few times. I mean, I've played pianos for about 15 years and I can probably play the notes when sight reading those music. However, after I record it and listen back, the dynamic and phrasing are just terrible and I have to refine the piece for at least two weeks to make it sound OK. How did you practice sight reading?

Also thanks for this reply! Finally found that it's not only me finding the Bosendofer Upright to be too mellow. I think VSL is just having different velocity mapping among their different pianos and that Bosendorfer Upright is just too mellow before the MIDI value 80-90. And there is a lot happening in the 100-127 range that you usually don't trigger with your normal touch sensitive. I hope they can fix it. Other than that this upright has a wider dynamic range than VI Labs Modern U.

I also reduce the RS level to about -8 which I think is ideal to my taste. What Sympathetic Resonance value do you use?

I also enjoyed playing Garritan CFX and thought it was the best for about a year. After playing the VSLs and Pianoteq for a few months and I went back to Garritan, I really think the dynamic range is not enough. And if you turn the dynamic range knob to 100% in Garritan CFX, you can get a soft volume but not the same timbre in VSL. I recently found that the preset of VSL D-274 provided by the forum member ethor to be a good one if I want an ambience sound: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...sl-steinway-d-released.html#Post2843854. I found a similar ambience effect just like Garritan CFX but the playability is still better.

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
dire tonic #2987704 06/04/20 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
[quote=Keybender]Play a single note, then press the sustain pedal and release the note while maintaining the sustain....all as expected.

Now press the sustain pedal, play a single note and keep the key depressed while maintaining the sustain. We get the expected resonance from all 88 notes since the sustain pedal is still depressed. That's ok. Now I release the pedal while keeping the key depressed. Why am I still hearing the resonance from all 88 notes?

I've tried this on my other libraries and, as expected, once the sustain pedal is released the dampers will drop on those other 87 undepressed keys.

On some virtual pianos, there are sustain on samples. This makes the sound more accurate, but when you release the pedal, it may be difficult to switch to sustain off samples. We have the same issue with EWQL pianos.

Synthogy Ivory pianos use instead a modelled resonance, but it is not as accurate as we can find on VSL, but can be switch off when we release the pedal.

Bechstein Digital Grand trigger both sustain on and off samples and can switch easily between on and other, but we have many voices trigger per each single notes (4 or 5).


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Paul Kopf #2987750 06/04/20 09:55 AM
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I still don't really understand what the RX and other release parameters do but it sounds much more to my liking now! Thanks!

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Harpuia #2987779 06/04/20 10:51 AM
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If I'm really honest I have trouble hearing it clearly expect when pushed to like 0dB or more (sympathetic resonance). So I normally set it between -10 and -3, and also I set the half pedal strength very high, it haven't had problems, in fact it feels even a bit smoother to me that way. But things like that are likely to change within the first weeks of playing. Also I increase the max voices limits to the maximum.
Interesting that you say the dynamic range is bigger than with the VI Labs Modern U. I looked on their page, it looks very interesting, but I haven't tried it. Normally I don't use the upright sound anyhow.

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Keybender #2987785 06/04/20 11:01 AM
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That's a good question, in fact I wrote to Paul about this. He replied with a nice link, where the parameters are explained a bit, but it seems to be quite difficult to describe in detail what happens there. But you get a fancy 3 Dimensional plot of graphs laugh

https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/synchron-pianos/edit-view

I had to look at the graph for quite a while to understand what this means, maybe this view helps to analyse it:

In mathematics people sometimes look at "intersection curves" to project higher dimensional things to lower dimensional ones.

So, if you "sit" down at one fixed velocity, then obviously we have only 2 free parameters left, namely the actual RX Dyn Shape and the Midi Note. This results in a normal 2 dimensional curve, or function. What we immediately see is that if we sit at a very low velocity, say 20, then all three curves are rather close together, no matter where we move along the "(RX Dyn Shape --- Midi ) - plane". This says to me that the effect (at all!) will have a noticeable impact for very loud notes only. At velocity 120 we see furthermore that for very high Midi notes the curves again stick together a lot (i.e. no big difference) but for small Midi note values the difference is the biggest.
To some it up, changing this paramater will have a dramatic effect whenever you slam the black keys of the Imperial.

The resulting number is then used as a multiplicative factor (!!) for the RX Dyn. value..... pretty complicated man! I'd use my ears.

Last edited by Gamma1734; 06/04/20 11:03 AM.
Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Paul Kopf #2987864 06/04/20 02:16 PM
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The staccato release samples of C#4 and F#4 sound weird. It's almost like there's no release sample, but not quite.

Re: NEW: VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial
Paul Kopf #2987896 06/04/20 03:25 PM
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Slip something in between...this BI has superb playabiltiy. It´s growing on me rapidly ...wow great job VSL.

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