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Piano Purchase Considerations
#2987156 06/02/20 07:03 PM
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Hello,

I am joining this forum as a potential new owner of a used piano. I am looking to lease to own a piano. I’m a professional pianist and have been renting a Yamaha GP1 for the past year, and the contract is ending. I am realizing that with the right down payment, I can buy and finance a piano for less per month.

I am looking for input on how to research the options that have been presented to me. My general budget is to purchase a piano for around $10k, and I want to get the best value out of a piano while also retaining the dollar value in order to be able to trade up after I’ve paid the instrument off.

I live in an apartment and have the space constraints which allow for a baby grand, no larger than 5’4”.

At the local piano shop, I’ve been offered [and have a deposit down on] a Brodmann BG162 made in 2008 ,for $8900. I wanted to investigate the merit of this proposal, in time to go through with or terminate the purchase [which would get me a comfortable payment plan as well as a sound that I very much like so far].

I’ve read some things here about Brodmann. The warnings have seemed to be along the lines of: Parts break, the sound decays, and the reputation doesn’t insure the retainment of value on the instrument for when I want to trade up.

However, the instrument that I played in the store was very satisfying. The touch was at least 50% more sensitive than the GB1K I was previewing. The sound was satisfying, it sounded like I was playing chocolate. [the good kind]. The touch seemed rather light, but the response was so good that it got hard to mind, especially given the relatively hard and unforgiving action of a GB1K. [also the in-house model seemed to have a weird and dampened-sounding upper-mid ranger]


at the same store I am offered that 2019[year it got to the store] Yamaha GB1K for $10k. This would add $1100 to the principe, but as far as I’ve seen, the Yamaha line retains its value when one wants to trade up.


Any gear-heads and fellow enthusiasts have some thoughts about this earlier Brodmann line? I’ve read some stuff on here that has raised concerns for me... and led me to be a bit suspicious of the dealer‘s motive in selling the piano.


Much Thanks
Tim

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Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987167 06/02/20 07:36 PM
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Does your dealer offer you a guaranteed trade-up plan, in writing, on the Broadmann or will you just have to take your chances on what the dealer offers you when the trade-up time comes? Trade-up plans occur more frequently with new pianos, rather than used (or so I have heard). The caveat, though, is that you have to trade up to a piano worth a minimum of $X (and that may be $XX,XXX.00) otherwise the trade-in will be worth what the dealer will give you at the time of trade, and that will be more or less depending on the value of the new piano. This is a discussion you should have with the dealer.

Others may be able to give you opinions or advice on a Broadmann of 2008 vintage.

Have you read this profile of Broadmann in Piano Buyer?

https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/brodmann/

Regards,

Last edited by BruceD; 06/02/20 07:41 PM.

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Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987173 06/02/20 07:52 PM
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1. I think most of the negative posts about Brodmann on PW are from one of two posters. I don't think this is a significant number to reach a conclusion.

2. All pianos lose value if you want to sell them although it's true the makes like Yamaha or Steinway may hold their value slightly better than other makes.

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
pianoloverus #2987206 06/02/20 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
1. I think most of the negative posts about Brodmann on PW are from one of two posters. I don't think this is a significant number to reach a conclusion.

2. All pianos lose value if you want to sell them although it's true the makes like Yamaha or Steinway may hold their value slightly better than other makes.

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Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987207 06/02/20 10:19 PM
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If you're worried about long term cost of ownership, and/or losing money on a resale or trade in, consider spending less right up front.

For example, something like these might have some potential for you:

https://cnj.craigslist.org/msg/d/morristown-baby-grand-piano-excellent/7130151374.html

https://cnj.craigslist.org/msg/d/raritan-baldwin-grand-prix-baby-grand/7129098690.html



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Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987310 06/03/20 08:46 AM
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Thanks for the inputs guys.

By chance does anyone have experience with the Faust Harrison dealership in New York? To me things seem in the right shape. With 3rd party sales like EBay and Craigslist I am very cautious, when it comes to pianos. There seems to be no way to know if the user is truthful about the condition of the instrument and the upkeep done. Same could go with other things but when talking about things that are decades old it get me a bit cautious.

@retsacnal, thanks for the inks. I don’t know much about Baldwin, but I’ll try a search on the model. I know Ive seen discussions of Baldwin holding up to the reputable bunch....

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987314 06/03/20 08:56 AM
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Also to note— the eventual Forward moving plans, as it stands, would probably be to find a price cut on an 80’s or 90’s Steinway S or a nicer Yamaha. I saw a Steinway D in this area going for $29,500 today

Which brings me to another thought— I checked Faust Harrison and they seem to have both a selling and trade-in situation. It’s something I will try to get details on with the president, as I am planning to make my way over there today.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know whether Trade-Ins end up getting you a better deal than buy-outs?

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987346 06/03/20 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tchernik
Also to note— the eventual Forward moving plans, as it stands, would probably be to find a price cut on an 80’s or 90’s Steinway S or a nicer Yamaha. I saw a Steinway D in this area going for $29,500 today

Which brings me to another thought— I checked Faust Harrison and they seem to have both a selling and trade-in situation. It’s something I will try to get details on with the president, as I am planning to make my way over there today.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know whether Trade-Ins end up getting you a better deal than buy-outs?

No, in fact trade-ins give the buyer less negotiation room on the price of a new piano. It’s the price you pay for the wonderful convenience of having your new piano wheeled in and your old piano wheeled out. You don’t end up trying to sell your old piano yourself and maybe the hassle of two pianos taking up space in your living room. But again the convenience costs the buyer. I myself always trade in because my Yamaha dealer has a great trade in policy, especially on pianos bought from his dealership. Financially it isn’t the best policy for me, but this way I was able to move up from a Baldwin console, to a Yamaha GB1K, to a Yamaha C3, to an Estonia L190. All I had to pay was the difference between my original purchase price of the previous piano and the new sales price of the new piano and pay tax on the difference.


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Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987358 06/03/20 10:49 AM
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If you're looking for no larger than 5'4", have you considered a Boston grand piano? I have played both Boston GP-156 (5'1") and a GP-163 (5'4") grands, and they are both *very* nice (although I liked the 163 better).

I currently own a Yamaha C2 (it's about 20 y/o, I purchased it used) and I absolutely love it. I've never played a C1, but you might put that on your list to try as well... I'm actually not understanding why you don't have more makes/models on your list?

Since you mentioned Faust Harrison, why not make an appointment to go and play what they have there? This will give you a lot more information about what you personally like.

Good luck either way!


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Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
ShiroKuro #2987506 06/03/20 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
If you're looking for no larger than 5'4", have you considered a Boston grand piano? I have played both Boston GP-156 (5'1") and a GP-163 (5'4") grands, and they are both *very* nice (although I liked the 163 better).

I currently own a Yamaha C2 (it's about 20 y/o, I purchased it used) and I absolutely love it. I've never played a C1, but you might put that on your list to try as well... I'm actually not understanding why you don't have more makes/models on your list?

Since you mentioned Faust Harrison, why not make an appointment to go and play what they have there? This will give you a lot more information about what you personally like.

Good luck either way!

I’m actually at the dealer right now. They had 1 Boston, which went right at the price point I am looking for. And, I see one for sale in Georgia on EBay, and it’s financeable [against my prior knowledge of EBay pianos].... very interesting. I will sneak a test of the one here and see if it’s worth looking into

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987520 06/03/20 05:00 PM
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The Boston is pretty good. I’d be interested in that, and then possibly trading up to the C1X. The trick is that I have to make sure the trade-up would work. I’m going to talk to the dealer about that.

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987590 06/03/20 07:25 PM
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It turns out the dealer will do a 100% trade-in as long as the piano is worth at least 2X as much as what I paid for this model. For me, that’s great, because it just gives me a chance to get together some extra principle and then try to finance for a similar timeframe... essentially I could get an extra head start if I was done paying for a year or two [or longer....] and was still using the model during that time— would be easy

I really don’t mind the Brodmann, and enjoy the sound production. And I’m told I can make the action a bit harder if I want. That seems good.

100% trade-up [for a CS1X like the one going for $21k], low payments, good options to keep for 1-2 years+ after financing is done, and great options at the dealership. I think this dealer is a winner for the NYC area.

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987600 06/03/20 07:49 PM
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Ok, here's my paranoid brain talking. How many years do you anticipate having the piano before you trade up? Are you certain that piano shop will still be there? After covid and all the economic challenges facing our country?

The bad thing about buying with trade up in mind is, you only benefit if you buy from that same dealer in the future. And that means the dealer has to still be there.

Wait, I forgot, we're talking about Faust Harrison.... you should be fine then.

I'm just feeling particularly paranoid lately...


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Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
ShiroKuro #2987666 06/04/20 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Ok, here's my paranoid brain talking. How many years do you anticipate having the piano before you trade up? Are you certain that piano shop will still be there? After covid and all the economic challenges facing our country?

The bad thing about buying with trade up in mind is, you only benefit if you buy from that same dealer in the future. And that means the dealer has to still be there.

Wait, I forgot, we're talking about Faust Harrison.... you should be fine then.

I'm just feeling particularly paranoid lately...

Excellent point there !!

That makes me think the trade up option is kind of pointless smile

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
DreamPiano80 #2987714 06/04/20 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamPiano80
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Ok, here's my paranoid brain talking. How many years do you anticipate having the piano before you trade up? Are you certain that piano shop will still be there? After covid and all the economic challenges facing our country?

The bad thing about buying with trade up in mind is, you only benefit if you buy from that same dealer in the future. And that means the dealer has to still be there.

Wait, I forgot, we're talking about Faust Harrison.... you should be fine then.

I'm just feeling particularly paranoid lately...

Excellent point there !!

That makes me think the trade up option is kind of pointless smile

The other bad thing about trade up options is that you might (almost certainly will) have to pay more for the replacement piano than if you were negotiating freely and could purchase from anywhere. That said I have just traded up my own piano and benefited greatly from the arrangement.

Do bear in mind that if you buy a new piano and then trade in up later the dealer takes a big hit as he won't be able to sell on your used piano at anywhere near the price of new ones, so that hit has to be made up somewhere i.e. either on the trade in price offered or the purchase price of the new piano.

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
ShiroKuro #2987808 06/04/20 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Ok, here's my paranoid brain talking. How many years do you anticipate having the piano before you trade up? Are you certain that piano shop will still be there? After covid and all the economic challenges facing our country?

The bad thing about buying with trade up in mind is, you only benefit if you buy from that same dealer in the future. And that means the dealer has to still be there.

Wait, I forgot, we're talking about Faust Harrison.... you should be fine then.

I'm just feeling particularly paranoid lately...


I’m all for extensive precaution when it comes to these large complicated purchases.

Faust Harrison is a multi-branch dealer and does have a lot of pianos. The dealer who happens to be the president, is very shrewd. She both really wants to get rid of the Brodmann, and genuinely thinks it’s a great line.

That’s what gets so tricky here. The model IS rare— it’s a model made before the company branched off. There was no CE, PE, AS. It was a BG. I wonder how much improvement was made to the line. She seemed so desperate to be correct about the piano that I felt weird about discussing that part with her. Could be the pandemic talking.

She also criticized my playing technique to essentially tell me that if I was talking about action, she knew better than me because she’s a classical pianist and when I improvise I make mistakes.

Anyways, What I suspect is that, dealers have to know When we know what a model’s value is. They will shapeshifter to the situation. If not, then they aren’t smart dealers. There’s got to be a threshold of ignorance that one gets past in order to be given a good deal.

But there’s a lot to figure out here. For instance... my teacher, a renowned jazz musician in the NYC area, has a Boston in his living room. Why does a guy like that own a Boston, of all things.... if what this dealer says about Bostons is true? She says that they are slightly modified Kawai’s. [the one Boston she had happened to have already been sold... and I’m pretty sure I saw a Brodmann sitting in there 5 years ago when I was last there poking for a piano.]

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987821 06/04/20 12:24 PM
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The thing about Faust Harrison is that they already have decent prices on stuff. Also I think this idea that “Dealers will high ball you when you trade up” is hard to verify and also seems way to general. But maybe I have a positive bias right now due to the “pandemic fear pricing” factor.

For instance, there’s a C1X in the showroom going for $21,000. That’s basically the price of Used C1X’s listed on EBay.

My goal here is to get the best possible piano for my price range. I don’t want to deal with a piano that’s a good deal at 1/2 the price. That’s not what I’m looking to do. I will pay for the right piano in my budget range, and if I can turn that in later for full value, then I’m okay with eating $1000 of interest considering the benefit of using it [and having it payment-free for 1-2+ years unlike any rental]. And, the other consequence of the pandemic is that APR is going down.

And also there’s a profound difference, it seems, in how much dealers high ball you for trade ups. For instance the “Flagship Steinway Dealer” wants to sell me a used Hailun c. 2007 for $6000, and then have me trade up for a new Boston 156 at $21k+.

[Also imho I don’t like to use the term “replacements”; because more expensive models are better especially going from sub-$20k to $20k. Any serious pianist Feels the difference between a Boston GBE/Yamaha GB1k and a C1X or , and that difference compounds over time]

When it comes to something like a piano, I consider myself a “race car driver” in the sense that any edge in equipment is an asset to me that I will pay for as long as it’s prudent. Having a better equipment for my needs right now is worth taking in $1150 worth of interest expenses before I trade up. Though I appreciate the measure of caution in realizing that right now, a dealer wants to get me onboard and then could change their tune later.


One more idea: when it comes to pandemic fear— that’s just as much a an argument for buying now as anything else. It’s the same thing as equities... when everyone is compromised by fear, that’s when you buy. Being fearless is important. But, I have to know what the most sensible vehicle is for my needs right now.

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987829 06/04/20 12:52 PM
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Those US made Baldwin pianos would be in Larry Fine's performance grade pianos if they were still made there today .Just a thought.
Boston pianos can be very nice.No they are not Kawai pianos, but then again have you tried a Kawai GX grand ? Wonderfull pianos !
That woman who is so desperately trying to sell you the Brodmann sounds rather creepy. The piano is for you not her!

Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
Lady Bird #2987831 06/04/20 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Those US made Baldwin pianos would be in Larry Fine's performance grade pianos if they were still made there today .Just a thought.
Boston pianos can be very nice.No they are not Kawai pianos, but then again have you tried a Kawai GX grand ? Wonderfull pianos !
That woman who is so desperately trying to sell you the Brodmann sounds rather creepy. The piano is for you not her!

Yes, she was really talking down all of the other pianos. It bothers me that she did that, especially because I like the piano already. And, it’s less money than other pianos that I could buy. But maybe she just needs to sell it.

I have to differ when it comes to Kawai. In general, I don’t like both the action and the sound on Kawai’s. There’s something about them that doesn’t rub me the right way. And, the action is HARD, not in a way that a Steinway is, because they don’t have any range and there’s nothing I hear in them that makes them particularly more colorful or pleasing in sound Yamahas.

I don’t know a lot about Baldwin. It’s hard to know how it sounds from a YouTube. Most of the time the recording quality isn’t good, so you don’t really hear what any piano has to offer. But I’ll say that when I look at people showing their Baldwins I don’t hear anything particularly compelling in how they sound. Not above anything else in the range.

I’ll also say that there’s very little said about Brodmann, and that’s strange because playing the Brodmann in the store, it was a positive experience. I’m trying to understand why. I hear people talk about longevity and that’s the main thing. The only I’m looking at is a 2008 make. And I don’t know what that line went for back then. But I do know it sounded good. I just worry about the action being too soft. Being used to actions that are harder seems to be important for a performer— mainly because our issue is being ready for any model thrown at us, and need to be conditioned, especially with hand coordination and muscle maintenance.

That’s not to say that my opinion is unchangeable. It’s always a question of taste when it comes down to it. But, I do prefer Yamaha to Kawai.

Last edited by tchernik; 06/04/20 01:08 PM.
Re: Piano Purchase Considerations
tchernik #2987840 06/04/20 01:36 PM
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Also one more thing to bother me here... The BG line isn’t on that list of piano tiers. The PE is Premium and CE is Mid.

???

The BG branched off after those first couple of years. And there’s NOTHING written about it other than an old pamphlet and some other stuff.

I almost wonder if this dealer is testing me to see if I really know why I want a Yamaha. She reluctantly agrees to sell me a GB1K for $10K and says it’s because that’s the market but the Brodmann is better than anything else offered in that price range. I believe her, to a certain extent. Because I liked the sound, but the action is so light and that worries me, especially because most recording studios have Steinway O’s. I have to be ready to play them, THAT DAY.

The other likely thought is that this is her actual opinion, but that my needs are a bit different. But it’s hard to say. for instance my teacher who is a Grammy nominated jazz pianist [for his own projects], has a Boston but is a Yamaha-sponsored artist. Is that for some sort of incentive they are giving him, or is that his opinion? His words to me at lessons were “Just go with a Yamaha”. There’s a lot left to the imagination there. Maybe in 3 months we can have another lesson and he’ll finally clear it up.

Only thing is, I’m recording my own project in a month and need to be practicing on something. I’m paying for an apartment that can hold a grand and don’t want to shell out for a practice room... in NYC they are expensive and the instruments there are just as terrible as anything someone could Rent or buy. I suppose the commute is easier these days, though.

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