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Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
#2986776 06/01/20 06:06 PM
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I now have a Yamaha Avantgrand, a digital piano which I often play with headphones. My regular headphones are fine. However, the cord is annoying, and often gets in the way.

Would bluetooth headphones be workable? Or is the latency too great?

(Organists can manage a long delay when the console is a distance from the organ pipes. And in fact, the delay used to be even longer, back in the days of tracker organs, when the console was connected to the pipes using pneumatic signaling. So why not us pianists?)

Last edited by Eric NYC; 06/01/20 06:06 PM.

Yamaha Avantgrand N3, Bush & Lane upright grand (1920s), Steinway upright grand (1893)
Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2986779 06/01/20 06:14 PM
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There is too much latency. Organists don't have much choice.

Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2986797 06/01/20 06:58 PM
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Repeating johnstaf's point for emphasis:

Bluetooth latency is unbearable...
A cord may be annoying, but it is absolutely necessary -

cheers,

Jack


(Hi Mac!)


Kawai MP11SE | K&M 18950 | Pianoteq Pro (Bleuthner, Steingraeber, Petrof, Bechstein, Steinway B & D, Electric Pianos, K) | Sennheiser HD600 | Sony WH-1000XM3 (using wired) for noise isolation
Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2986812 06/01/20 07:43 PM
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There are non-Bluetooth radio-based solutions ... but they're way expensive.

Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2986818 06/01/20 08:18 PM
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Thanks for the comments. Yes, that's what I suspected.

As far as I remember, the latency of the bluetooth headphones is something like 150-250 msec, varying depending on the particular headphone. And an additional latency would be introduced by the box that creates the bluetooth signal. (As far as I know, since digital pianos probably don't normally have bluetooth transmitters, in order to use bluetooth speakers, you'd have to plug a bluetooth transmitter into the audio-out port of the piano, which would send the signal to the headphones.)

So let's say you're playing a sixteenth note passage at mm = 120, which means that each beat is half a second, and each sixteenth note is 125 ms. So the 250 msec delay would be two sixteenth notes... which of course would be unbearable. (Except for an organist!)


Yamaha Avantgrand N3, Bush & Lane upright grand (1920s), Steinway upright grand (1893)
Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
MacMacMac #2986820 06/01/20 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There are non-Bluetooth radio-based solutions ... but they're way expensive.

Do you mean something like the familiar wireless microphones? Do wireless mics use a radio technology (which would be nearly instantaneous), or is it some other technology which would have a latency?


Yamaha Avantgrand N3, Bush & Lane upright grand (1920s), Steinway upright grand (1893)
Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2986825 06/01/20 08:28 PM
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If it's wireless then it's radio.

Bluetooth is radio ... but its latency is there because it's a network of sorts.

Regular radio isn't networked. Latency is no larger than what the speed-of-light will allow.

Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2987091 06/02/20 03:52 PM
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Keep the wire to get the full quality of sound your expensive headphones are capable of. Running it through anything else, especially a wireless system, is likely to degrade the sound quality. Will you notice? Too many variables to say.


Adult Beginner: Yamaha P115 Piano, Guitars
Long Gone: Trumpet, Renaissance Recorders
Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2987097 06/02/20 04:10 PM
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Analog radio based headphones don't need to be expensive. There are consumer products. I have such wireless headphones connected to my TV.

But they are not very good and wouldn't really work for digital piano because of the audio quality.

Infrared based wireless headphones were also a thing in the past.

Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2987100 06/02/20 04:22 PM
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Bluetooth is evil... great for connecting your mouse to your PC... but that is about it.

Sound can never be great. See the video below from Paul McGowan, CEO at PS Audio (a high-end audio equipment company). He also talks about BlueTooth 5.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

https://youtu.be/fDzZyfOSPb0

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 06/02/20 04:23 PM.

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Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2987101 06/02/20 04:22 PM
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Does the Avantgrand support Bluetooth Aptx? Aptx is a compression codec used over Bluetooth that delivers lower latency than standard codecs. If the Avantgrand supports it and your headphones support it, it might be a solution.

My dad has hearing loss and has tried many wireless headphone solutions over the years for his TV watching. With standard codecs, the sound delay can cause speech to be out of sync with the picture. Last year sometime, I got him a Bluetooth transmitter and headphones that supported Aptx, and it is much better.

So there is a tiny bit of "something new under the sun" with regard to Bluetooth audio. I know the Kawai newer series support it, but I haven't tried it out myself yet.

That said, nothing beats the "latency" of a hard wire! smile


Previous owner of a Yahama P-120 - now has new life with a student
New owner of a Kawai CA79 (and love it!)
Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
kimby #2987103 06/02/20 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kimby
That said, nothing beats the "latency" of a hard wire! smile

Ha! No kidding. Even as good as WiFi, BlueTooth.. whatever.... can be today... note I said "can be"... I still wired my home, myself for Ethernet. Now I have giga-speed to all my audio, video, and computer devices. It doesn't degrade over time (as these radio devices can and will do) nor is a wire "flaky"... I will just leave it at that.

Regarding "can be", I am shocked that folks put their routers in basements, under the dog, in the garage, in the back corner of the house.... cripes. Then they complain of stuttering etc... then spend money on extenders and blah blah blah.... My advice is to not give knives to children.... a nice wire please.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 06/02/20 04:31 PM.

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Bruce in Philly
Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2987105 06/02/20 04:36 PM
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Quote
. . . My dad has hearing loss and has tried many wireless headphone solutions over the years for his TV watching. With standard codecs, the sound delay can cause speech to be out of sync with the picture.

I sympathize with your dad.

Some TV's have a "video delay" setting, buried in the menus. It lets you delay the video by enough milliseconds, so that the lip movement, and the sounds over Bluetooth headphones, come back into sync.


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Bluetooth headphones with digital piano?
Eric NYC #2987128 06/02/20 05:32 PM
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Wireless is for portability.

When I play the piano I'm usually no more than an arm's length from the keys.

So ... am I portable? Nope.
Is my 200-pound piano portable? Nope.

The piano and the pianist stay together. They're not portable. I don't see a need for wireless/Bluetooth.


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