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Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
#2986630 06/01/20 01:15 PM
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Hi guys!

I recently bought a new Roland FP-90 digital piano and I like it but I noticed that the keys near the top are particularly heavy (more than 100 grams of down weight) compared to the weight at the end of the key (66-72 grams).
Obviously this depends by the length of the key that are quite shorter than the keys of an acoustic piano but I would like to know if there is anyone the have the same numbers (key down weight > 100g) of me.

Thank you. Bye.

Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986643 06/01/20 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by zacs
Hi guys!

I recently bought a new Roland FP-90 digital piano and I like it but I noticed that the keys near the top are particularly heavy (more than 100 grams of down weight) compared to the weight at the end of the key (66-72 grams).
Obviously this depends by the length of the key that are quite shorter than the keys of an acoustic piano but I would like to know if there is anyone the have the same numbers (key down weight > 100g) of me.

Thank you. Bye.

It probably depends a lot on how you're measuring (what weights are you using, where you are placing them, what is the key behavior at the weight you publish). 100g is a lot (like 2x normal) and even 66-72g is very high in the acoustic range.

The length of the key shouldn't matter unless you're measuring the weight near the fallboard.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
Gombessa #2986675 06/01/20 03:03 PM
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Sorry, I didn't specify some things:

- Down weight to me is the weight you need to move the key a bit from the rest position (so only to move, not to produce sound).
- I measured the weight with coins.
- I placed the coins 2 cm before the top of the key and at the end of the key.
- In the middle C (at the end of the key) I have 63g on the white keys and 68 on the black keys.

I'm trying to figure out if I have training problem with my hands or there is something wrong with my Roland FP-90 (or even with all FP-90).

Thank you.

Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986676 06/01/20 03:06 PM
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The visible part of the key is ~2/3 of the length to the pivot point.

[Linked Image]

Therefore the force needed to make the key move close to fallboard is ~1.5 times force needed at the tip of the key.

It's science. M = F * r. The numbers match.

Assuming a total key length from tip to pivot of 22.5 cm the 66g at the tip should correspond to 100g at the fallboard.

Problem solved. Your piano obeys the laws of physics. Congratulations!

😉

And with a longer key stick the difference will be smaller. Like with the "Hybrid Grand" action:

[Linked Image]

Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986678 06/01/20 03:10 PM
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The PHA-50 has a pivot length of about 22 cm, which is pretty darn respectable in a DP. You're not going to find much better than that without spending a fair amount more ...


Decent upright bassist; aspiring decent pianist
Present: Roland DP-603, Roland FP-30, Casio CDP-130
Past: Casio PX-830, Casio PX-160
Etc.: PianoTeq Stage 6 (Bechstein, Bluethner, U4, Vibes, Xylo), Roland KC-80
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
clothearednincompo #2986692 06/01/20 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
And with a longer key stick the difference will be smaller. Like with the "Hybrid Grand" action:

[Linked Image]

That picture makes me salivate ... laugh


Decent upright bassist; aspiring decent pianist
Present: Roland DP-603, Roland FP-30, Casio CDP-130
Past: Casio PX-830, Casio PX-160
Etc.: PianoTeq Stage 6 (Bechstein, Bluethner, U4, Vibes, Xylo), Roland KC-80
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986700 06/01/20 03:37 PM
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The FP actions since the FP4 series is fatiguing for me. I had the FP2, FP3 and the FP4 and their actions were fairly comfortable, especially the fragile FP3. But when I got the FP50 and then FP60 that was it, too heavy. That down weight mentioned above in first post is way above my comfort zone, and also most pros I talk too. Playing shouldn't be such hard work, it's not the gymnasium. Those modern FP actions aggravate my tendinitis. After I carry the thing to the gig, and an amp, then I got to play three or sometimes four 45 minutes sets and press such heavy keys and risk a repetitive stress injury? No thanks.


Playing professionally since 1975. Style: Straight-ahead jazz. Gear: Kawai ES110 | Mojo 61 | 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986702 06/01/20 03:39 PM
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They are definitely on the heavier side. That's my preference, but I can see how they're not everyone's cuppa.


Decent upright bassist; aspiring decent pianist
Present: Roland DP-603, Roland FP-30, Casio CDP-130
Past: Casio PX-830, Casio PX-160
Etc.: PianoTeq Stage 6 (Bechstein, Bluethner, U4, Vibes, Xylo), Roland KC-80
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986721 06/01/20 04:08 PM
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Thank you for your comments.

I have to say that a lot of digital piano unfortunately have heavy action. I owned the Yamaha Arius 164 and it had a down weight of 85g!

To me this Roland FP-90 is on the heavy side but I think that Kawai ES8 and Yamaha P515 (at the same price level) are not lighther.

The only DP I tried that is truly light is the Kawai ES110 but unfortunately is too basic (few sounds, single sensor action, plastic feel keys, etc.).

I hope to get used to this weight soon.

Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986739 06/01/20 04:39 PM
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Roland needs to develop a SuperNatural action that's not limited by the known laws of physics. 😉

Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986758 06/01/20 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rintincop
The FP actions since the FP4 series is fatiguing for me. I had the FP2, FP3 and the FP4 and their actions were fairly comfortable, especially the fragile FP3. But when I got the FP50 and then FP60 that was it, too heavy. That down weight mentioned above in first post is way above my comfort zone, and also most pros I talk too. Playing shouldn't be such hard work, it's not the gymnasium. Those modern FP actions aggravate my tendinitis. After I carry the thing to the gig, and an amp, then I got to play three or sometimes four 45 minutes sets and press such heavy keys and risk a repetitive stress injury? No thanks.

I sold my FP-30 due to harsh keys...

BUT I bought another FP.... the FP-90 which felt lighter, and more pleasant to practice on for longer periods. Therefore, whilst some of the later FPs might have a heavier action, the FP-90's feel lighter IMO.

Originally Posted by zacs
sThank you for your comments.

I have to say that a lot of digital piano unfortunately have heavy action. I owned the Yamaha Arius 164 and it had a down weight of 85g!

To me this Roland FP-90 is on the heavy side but I think that Kawai ES8 and Yamaha P515 (at the same price level) are not lighther.

The only DP I tried that is truly light is the Kawai ES110 but unfortunately is too basic (few sounds, single sensor action, plastic feel keys, etc.).

I hope to get used to this weight soon.

When shopping in the LX705 price range/style (so a few more ££, but not shopping for slabs), the Yamaha and Casio actions felt heavier (in my inexperienced hands). There were no Kawais in that showroom, which is a shame... but nothing I tried was lighter than PHA-50 apart from the "Grand Hybrid" action of the LX-706.

Interestingly (and I have posted this before), coming from an FP-90 with exactly the same action, my new LX-705 felt heavier. It was replaced due to damage caused by the installers, and that felt heavier too. It may therefore lighten up slightly with use (or they've changed something in production).


Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986782 06/01/20 06:18 PM
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I would agree that the PHA-4 (e.g., FP-30) feels a bit heavier than the PHA-50 (e.g., FP-90), both overall and at the back of the key (due to the shorter pivot point). I like them both, but I wouldn't recommend them to everyone.


Decent upright bassist; aspiring decent pianist
Present: Roland DP-603, Roland FP-30, Casio CDP-130
Past: Casio PX-830, Casio PX-160
Etc.: PianoTeq Stage 6 (Bechstein, Bluethner, U4, Vibes, Xylo), Roland KC-80
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
TheophilusCarter #2986815 06/01/20 08:05 PM
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How much longer is the PHA50 vs pha4

Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986822 06/01/20 08:22 PM
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About 2 cm, as far as I can calculate. Take that for what's it's worth ...


Decent upright bassist; aspiring decent pianist
Present: Roland DP-603, Roland FP-30, Casio CDP-130
Past: Casio PX-830, Casio PX-160
Etc.: PianoTeq Stage 6 (Bechstein, Bluethner, U4, Vibes, Xylo), Roland KC-80
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986823 06/01/20 08:24 PM
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The PHA4 Concert (is it still made?) is longer than the PHA4 standard. The Concert is the same as the 50 at 22 cm. The Standard is around 20 cm.

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/01/20 08:25 PM.
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986826 06/01/20 08:29 PM
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I'm not sure about the Concert; I haven't seen it listed in any recent models I'm aware of.
But yah, that's what I figured too: PHA-50 about 22 cm, PHA-4 (Standard) about 20 cm.


Decent upright bassist; aspiring decent pianist
Present: Roland DP-603, Roland FP-30, Casio CDP-130
Past: Casio PX-830, Casio PX-160
Etc.: PianoTeq Stage 6 (Bechstein, Bluethner, U4, Vibes, Xylo), Roland KC-80
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986827 06/01/20 08:30 PM
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@ zacs, what also might help, playing heavier actions, it's more important to let your hand fall into the keys, to preserve stamina. If you fight the weight with all muscle you will lose.

Last edited by jeffcat; 06/01/20 08:31 PM.
Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
jeffcat #2986903 06/02/20 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
@ zacs, what also might help, playing heavier actions, it's more important to let your hand fall into the keys, to preserve stamina. If you fight the weight with all muscle you will lose.

Thank you for your suggestion. I think I need to completely change my technique because when I was young I played on a very light keyboard so I never "built" the strength of my hands.

Indeed in the last days my wrists and my tendons hurt a lot frown

Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
zacs #2986908 06/02/20 05:34 AM
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Not that I know anything about the topic but there are many ways to make your hands hurt.

There's the up-down movement and everything involved with that (using more gravity and less muscle?) and then there's the side to side movement where trying to stretch your hand too much to play legato notes can cause pain and you should just give up and move the hand and break the "perfect legato".

And then there's the sitting too far and leaning forwards and developing shoulder and neck pain and whatnot. And too close isn't good either. Or too high. Or too low. 🙄

Playing piano is really dangerous, actually. 😉

Re: Roland FP-90 keys weight near the top
clothearednincompo #2986983 06/02/20 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Playing piano is really dangerous, actually. 😉

Super dangerous. A russian schooled instructor will cure most of the physical problems one may have, but then he/she will also cause mental trauma from the intensity of the strict instruction.

Last edited by jeffcat; 06/02/20 11:08 AM.
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