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Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
#2986123 05/31/20 11:22 AM
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[Linked Image]
The so-called "RH-N" action used by Nord Grand
[Linked Image]
The Kawai RHIII

it's almost identical except that Nord deliberately removed the let-off simulation.

Maybe the Nord so-called costumed action is just a velocity curve adjustment like it does with fatar actions or maybe it does nothing with action just rename it for marketing.

If anyone had the experiences that compare the Nord Grand and Kawai ES8/MP7se side by side, please share your what's your thought and feel, I appreciate your feedback.

If the action is almost identical, I don't understand why people should buy the Grand with two times higher price for almost the same thing. for example, compare to the MP7se. ( the Kawai piano sound is fantastic either, IMO).

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986130 05/31/20 11:44 AM
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I don't think anyone really takes it seriously when any maker claims to have a "customised" or custom version of a sourced action. If it's a Fatar action, it'll likely look, feel and behave exactly like a Fatar. If it's a Kawai or Casio, it'll be the same thing. E.g., there probably aren't going to be any changes made to the plastic molding or action geometry or anything major.

Perhaps the exception are the extremely expensive bespoke modifications such as the Ravenworks VPC-1 or Lachnit MK.


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Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986131 05/31/20 11:44 AM
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[Linked Image]




All piano manufacturers in the list above use Renner piano action. Would you ask again why pay more? smile


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Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986156 05/31/20 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by id4pw
If the action is almost identical, I don't understand why people should buy the Grand with two times higher price for almost the same thing. for example, compare to the MP7se. ( the Kawai piano sound is fantastic either, IMO).

Well the Nord Grand buyer is most likely after the sound of the Nord Piano and its fairly large library -- and to be coupled with a superior action then the Fatar, that is standard in all their other keyboards. There's also for gigging musicians, that sort of visual hipness factor associated with it, in certain circles or contexts. No offense to Kawai but not so much.

I played the NG in an extremely noisy environment at last NAMM and found an immediate improvement over any of the past generations of Nord Pianos. And I owned the first two.

Like I just posted in the other thread, before covid, I was seeing a few people using them around LA. One woman is a busy Jazz pianist and accompanist to vocalists. It sounded excellent out front, which is part of the widespread appeal of the Nords. She's my age and isn't all that fit looking, so she must have someone helping her out with the schlep I'm guessing.

I've also seen two different people, more light pop/rock singer songwriter type people, using them for their facebook live at home concerts. Again they sounded good just playing triads.

I've thought about one for home but quickly dismissed it as they're too expensive and still don't give you what an Avant Grand or Kawai hybrid does, in terms of a serious pianist player connection.. Yes the hybrids are twice the money but most likely you'll keep it a lot longer then something like the NG. I could see the fun/inspiration factor of that wearing thin, again for someone who practices a lot, plays more then pop/rock triads and needs the DP to emulate an acoustic as close as possible, within 12 to 18 months.

Just my opinion fwiw.


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Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986159 05/31/20 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by id4pw
it's almost identical /quote]
I think it was already well known that it was an altered version of the RHIII. I guess the news here is that the let-off is the difference (or one of the differences)? Also, I think the Nord version is not graded. (Which may also be related to the presence of counterweights?)

[quote=id4pw]maybe it does nothing with action just rename it for marketing.
No... even by your own evaluation, they are not identical. "Almost" identical is not identical.

Originally Posted by id4pw
If the action is almost identical, I don't understand why people should buy the Grand with two times higher price for almost the same thing.
Whatever differences there are will make it feel different, and someone may prefer the feel of Nord's implementation. Also some people will prefer the Nord's piano sounds, and/or the ability to load so many completely different characters of piano sounds into it (and presumably more in the future), or perfer its approach to front panel operation.

Just on general principles, for an analogy, Lexus is in many ways almost identical to a Toyota, but the differences that do exist make the price difference worth paying for some people. And the total action, sound, and operational differences between the Kawai and the Nord add up to a different experience.

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986176 05/31/20 01:24 PM
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The indeed look almost identical. The Nord seems to lack what I think is the "escapement clicky thing".

So ... does Nord use a Kawai action, or does Kawai use a Nord action. Or do they both use a third-party action?

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986199 05/31/20 01:53 PM
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A somewhat official quote from the somewhat official Kawai James:

Quote
The 'RH' action utilised by the CL36 was the first generation 'Responsive Hammer' action design, but without let-off simulation.
The 'RHII' action made let-off simulation standard and added the triple sensor detection.
The 'RHIII' action refined the weighting and added counterweights to all black and white keys.

(http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ce-with-kawai-rh3-cn-25.html#Post2679572)

The Nord has no counterweigths(?) nor escapement simulation(?), but it has triple sensors, so it's not an exact match of any of the Kawai RH actions so far.

Hence it's RH-N.

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986215 05/31/20 02:37 PM
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Nord samples are so good and sound so autentic! They are getting better too.

I hope that this partnership with Kawai have a long duration and goes beyond Nord Grand, going to Nord Piano and even Stage/Electro.

A Nord Piano/Sample module with customized velocity curve section will not be bad either!

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986220 05/31/20 02:41 PM
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Interesting. Someone else posted today that the Nord sounded fake and plasticky.

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
MacMacMac #2986269 05/31/20 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
So ... does Nord use a Kawai action, or does Kawai use a Nord action. Or do they both use a third-party action?
Nord uses a modified Kawai action.

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
MacMacMac #2986294 05/31/20 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Interesting. Someone else posted today that the Nord sounded fake and plasticky.

I spent some time playing the Nord grand.
the comparitor keybaords were: CP88, ES8, Yamaha CLP685, Roland LX708, Roland RD2000, Roland Fantom 8, Casio GP510, Kawai CA98.

What to say about the Nord Grand:
The White Grand is a lovely sounding piano. For clarity, it is only beaten by the CLP685's binaural sampling. Arguably, the tone is slightly nicer than the Yamaha's.

It is perhaps my second favourite sounding digital
The only thing is: the Kawai samples are warmer and richer..

However, there is a problem with the Nord Grand's sample that put me off considering the instrument---the dynamics are not close to an acoustic piano.
I found playing it frustrating: tonally great, dynamically idiosyncratic.

Kind of the opposite of the Roland V-piano.

The action of the Nord Grand: feels slightly less authentic compared to the ES8---someone said that they took off the let-off simulation. That might be it: the Nord Grand feels slightly.lighter!

On the plus side: gorgeous to look at, and the slanting interface made me feel at home---more like operating an electone organ or a PSR7000 than a standard digital piano.


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Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986298 05/31/20 05:29 PM
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Thanks for the informative pictures. Its always good to know the juicy details!

Nord in general is preferred by many for its high quality samples, huge sound library and hands on controls for live performing. If you are a keyboard player or pianist who likes Nord's, but is not a fan of Fatar actions, the Nord Grand is for you. The price of entry is another story. No doubt the Kawai is good value and regardless of price could be the preferred option if you like escapement or prefer Kawai's features and sounds. I'd assume the connection between the action and the sound is implemented differently between the two (I think there's more to it than just velocity settings). But I'm just reciting what I've seen and read so I can't compared the two based on personal experience.

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986299 05/31/20 05:31 PM
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I don't quite see what's "modified" about the action. Only the fake rubber notch is removed. Nice modification, BTW smile Maybe that gave them the right to call it "modified", so you can feel special. And on the other hand, if I were to improve it, I'd do exactly the same: remove the rubber notch. So, it's win-win for Nord. RH-actions are great, I can't say anything bad about my ES7, especially for the price. How it works with the Nord's sounds is another story though, and I've never been able to connect to Nord sounds, they are fantastic in online demos but when I play them, something seems very wrong - maybe it's the dynamics indeed.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/31/20 05:32 PM.

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Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986302 05/31/20 05:39 PM
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The Nord Grand is significantly lighter weight than the Kawai MP7SE.

Nord samples are different from Kawai’s, including some different instruments.

The Nord Grand samples may be updated and/or replaced with samples of different instruments in the Nord library.

There may be differences in the two actions that have significance, but possibly not.

A Nord Grand is significantly more expensive than a Kawai MP7SE.

Those seem to be the relevant differences.


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Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
CyberGene #2986313 05/31/20 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I don't quite see what's "modified" about the action. Only the fake rubber notch is removed. Nice modification, BTW smile Maybe that gave them the right to call it "modified", so you can feel special
Even if that's not all they did, if they didn't call it modified, there would be posts about why the then supposedly identical action doesn't have the same feel, including the notch. Also, as I mentioned, I believe they may have also removed the gradedness and possibly counterweights.

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986314 05/31/20 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by id4pw
If anyone had the experiences that compare the Nord Grand and Kawai ES8/MP7se side by side, please share your what's your thought and feel, I appreciate your feedback.

I compared the ES8 and CN39 side-by-side. Both supposedly have RHIII action, but the one in the more recent CN39 seemed better. In particular, less nervously bouncy upon key return. No idea if the action was modified, or the ES8 on display just had more mileage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_KX158Bvvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FinhFsIOU4A

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
_sem_ #2986321 05/31/20 06:31 PM
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(the second link in my post above is slow motion of the RH-N action)

Generally, I liked the ES8 a lot. I prefer the FP90 keys, but ES8 sound. The Nord was nice to play too, but I didn't check it seriously, wanted something civil-looking for home, with reasonable built-in speakers, and was already over the intended budget.

Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
_sem_ #2986353 05/31/20 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by id4pw
If anyone had the experiences that compare the Nord Grand and Kawai ES8/MP7se side by side, please share your what's your thought and feel, I appreciate your feedback.

I compared the ES8 and CN39 side-by-side. Both supposedly have RHIII action, but the one in the more recent CN39 seemed better. In particular, less nervously bouncy upon key return. No idea if the action was modified, or the ES8 on display just had more mileage.
Per Kawai America, sometime in 2018 Kawai started using different key switches in the RHIII actions they were building to address some reliability issues with the prior key switches.


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Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
id4pw #2986429 06/01/20 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by id4pw
[Linked Image]

May I ask if you can provide a source link for this image, please?

By the way, I don't think it's such a major revelation that the Nord Grand uses a Kawai action, I mean...it's kind of printed on the product. wink

[Linked Image]

Cheers,
James
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ps. It's perhaps worth noting that NordKeyboards.jp lists the Nord Grand as using the "Grand Hammer Action"...


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Re: Nord Grand use the same action as Kawai RH3!(here the proof)
Kawai James #2986436 06/01/20 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by id4pw
[Linked Image]

May I ask if you can provide a source link for this image, please?

By the way, I don't think it's such a major revelation that the Nord Grand uses a Kawai action, I mean...it's kind of printed on the product. wink

[Linked Image]

Cheers,
James
x

ps. It's perhaps worth noting that NordKeyboards.jp lists the Nord Grand as using the "Grand Hammer Action"...

Most of us in the forum known Nord Grand used a "costumed version" of Kawai plastic action. I thought there should be some differences between the RH3 and RH-N(the Nord version) action. but IMO, it's almost identical except the nord version deliberately removed the let-off simulation and graded weighted ( have no idea about the counterweight).

Maybe I take it too seriously... BTW the image from nord forum, a guy disassembled his Grand for repairment. (here the link https://www.norduserforum.com/nord-...sembly-and-teardown-guide-t19178-10.html)

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