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Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
JJHLH #2983688 05/25/20 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JJHLH
Simone Dinnerstein has been known to practice occasionally on an AvantGrand prior to a performance. The second clip shows her with headphones:

https://www.facebook.com/simonedinnerstein/videos/927360597312266/

https://www.facebook.com/simonedinnerstein/videos/928326690548990/

Oh interesting! Thanks for these videos!

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2983697 05/25/20 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 1957
I had the pleasure of playing the nu1x 2 nights ago for about an hour. I currently own the clp-645. while i found the nu's speaker system top be slightly better, it made me fell better about my choice of the clp-645. I found the action very similar, though I shouldn't have. For the price the clp-645 is an absolute bargain. I paid 2899 for the 645 and though I could have probably purchased the nu1x for about 4600, I don't see the real reason to do so. Similar sound and maybe a slightly better action. Just maybe.........................imho


I'm not alone in being very pleasantly surprised with the CLP 645! I plan to try that out as well when I can make it out to the dealer.

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
cgeronimo #2983702 05/25/20 01:01 PM
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@cgeronimo - hope I can find a deal good as you did! I was impressed seeing your post on the prices paid! It's tough as I probably can only get a few tries on instruments at stores due to covid restrictions, but it's interesting seeing everyone's insights.

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2983710 05/25/20 01:08 PM
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@johnstaf - I'm sure that after practicing on a CP33 solely for two months, any hybrid action is going to feel better! and even though I've been playing the piano for my entire life, I had no ideas about the counterweights! Thanks for the info.

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2983716 05/25/20 01:16 PM
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@macmacmac - I think that's good advice, I'm terrible at that but I'll try to act the part and see if it works!

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
podski #2983724 05/25/20 01:30 PM
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@podski - Glad to have a friend in the same boat! Thanks for the insights, I wish I can offer up some of mine right now but I can't easily go to a piano dealer right now due to covid restrictions and the dealer shop being one hour away. There's so much I don't know about the digital piano world as I've only played on acoustics, and I will definitely put my insights up when I do try out different instruments!

My CP33 is just about the same heaviness as your CLP230 and the heaviness has really trained my fingers and made me work for it - any acoustic I play on feels so good. smile

As for what I recommend for beginners between acoustic uprights and DP with grand piano sound - I would recommend acoustic upright if that was an instrument in good shape. But since technology is getting so much better, I'm not 100% sure honestly that an acoustic is going to always be the better choice. I'll probably know better about this as well when I've tried different DP soon. wink

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2983727 05/25/20 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by conanima
1. I saw from another thread that the n1x key weight is around 22 pennies. I tried with my CP33 and I got 33 pennies (it's really heavy)! I know the type of action is different though (graded hammer keyboard with authentic touch), but do you think I would still feel that the CP33 is much heavier than the n1x?
That is hard to say without doing measurements or trying them both out together. But, I am not sure why you care. Likely, once you get N1X (or other hybrid) - I would imagine you would sell CP33.

Originally Posted by conanima
2. I tried my friend's N2 which he got about 6-7 years ago. I honestly wasn't impressed much back then with the sound of this instrument, although I only played on it with the speakers. Is there a big difference in playing the N2 with and without headphones?
IMHO, all digital pianos (including the hybrids like Yamaha N1X or Kawai Novus NV10) do not sound impressive via speakers. They do sound very good via headphones. The only DP whose speakers I have liked are Yamaha N3X.


Originally Posted by conanima
3. On some youtube reviews on the hybrids, some people said that the action is disappointing as it is actually not the same as a full grand piano, but more like a baby grand action. I couldn't find any basis for these claims though, does anybody know more about this?
The 'claim' is that Yamaha AvantGrand N2 has the same version as their smallest grand - C1. Source: https://techland.time.com/2013/01/23/mostly-piano-not-pretender-yamahas-avantgrand-n2-a-year-later/

Quote
the N2, it’s essentially the same action as the one Yamaha uses in its C1 Conservatory Classic Collection piano, a 5-foot, 3-inch grand

I have also heard that Yamaha N1/N2/N3/N1X/N3X all use the same action.

If you want slightly better action (IMHO again), try Kawai Novus NV10. Action has longer pivot (well established by measurements). I personally find it better than Yamaha N* action - but again IMHO.

Originally Posted by conanima
4. I've seen Sara Davis Buechner and other yamaha artists in ads for these yamaha hybrids but are there any members on here who've used these as main practice instruments for performances and find it adequate? There's no telling whether SDB or other yamaha artists actually use these instruments to do their practice.
No telling indeed. But, if acoustic grand is not an option and you want an acoustic grand action (as you should being a classical pianist performer/teacher) then the only reasonable choices in today's market are Yamaha N1X or Kawai Novus NV10. And if you have space, budget and liking for something like N3X - that is also an option. So, it really doesn't matter whether the paid 'Yamaha artists' use it or not. This is the best that is as far as hybrid DPs are concerned.

Originally Posted by conanima
5. Do these pianos have a good re-sell value? I have a trusty Yamaha C3 grand piano waiting for me at my parent's place, which I'm waiting to bring as soon as I can move to a house in a few years. If I bring my grand, I probably would sell the hybrid piano I get soon.

Likely not. DPs get upgraded reasonably quickly. So, expect at least a 40% drop in used market price in 3-5 years. That said, you may not want to sell this even when you get the C3. As time/circumstances change (spouse, kids, neighbors etc.) - it is always good to have an instrument you can practice on with headphones.

Originally Posted by conanima
6. I had tried a yamaha CLP-645 a couple years back as well as a yamaha N1 in 2018 at a dealer, and I was underwhelmed with the N1, and was seriously considering buying the CLP-645. It could be that the N1 floor model was old and overplayed, but the action and the sound did not merit the huge price tag over the CLP-645. Any clavinova players out there who have experience comparing their instrument to the hybrid instruments?

I can't speak of difference between CLP-645 and N1, but would recommend you also try out Kawai Novus NV10 and pick whichever your fingers like the best smile.

Originally Posted by conanima
7. In the "prices paid" thread, I've seen people that bought the N1X for MUCH cheaper by asking around and seeing if others will match the prices. I am terrible at haggling - would like some tips on how you do it. Do you just ask the dealer how low they're willing to go right off the bat? smile
No, never ask the dealer how low they're willing to go. Just do your research and offer a price that is reasonable. If dealer makes a counter-offer, you make another counter-offer. And, so on. If you don't like doing this in person, do it via email. It is much easier to negotiate via email than in person if you are not comfortable haggling.

Originally Posted by conanima
Thank you in advance and apologies again on the long post!
All the best for your search!

Osho


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Kawai Novus NV10 + VST. Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6/Embertone Walker D Full

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Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
Osho #2983805 05/25/20 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Osho
That is hard to say without doing measurements or trying them both out together. But, I am not sure why you care. Likely, once you get N1X (or other hybrid) - I would imagine you would sell CP33.

It's recommended for serious pianists to practice on heavy keyboards - it's like training with sandbags on. The reason why the CP33 has worked for me is that it's so dang heavy that I could do any expression I wanted on an acoustic grand with a lot of ease. I wish the specifications for the instruments came with the key weight as well as it matters for people like me.

Quote
The 'claim' is that Yamaha AvantGrand N2 has the same version as their smallest grand - C1. Source: https://techland.time.com/2013/01/23/mostly-piano-not-pretender-yamahas-avantgrand-n2-a-year-later/

the N2, it’s essentially the same action as the one Yamaha uses in its C1 Conservatory Classic Collection piano, a 5-foot, 3-inch grand

I have also heard that Yamaha N1/N2/N3/N1X/N3X all use the same action.

If you want slightly better action (IMHO again), try Kawai Novus NV10. Action has longer pivot (well established by measurements). I personally find it better than Yamaha N* action - but again IMHO.

Thanks for the article, I couldn't find it myself where it said the action was from the C1. I will definitely try out the NV10 as well after reading the comments!

Thanks for your advice Osho, it is really helpful!

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
MacMacMac #2983807 05/25/20 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There's a solution for this problem ...
Originally Posted by Mickey_
That is so me! I'd even make sure to apologize wholeheartedly for bluffing - you know, because I want something from THEM.
It's all about attitude.

Two things:
1. When making a large purchase ask yourself "who's in charge?" Answer: Me. Always own the floor. Be the speaker, not the audience.

2. I don't need a product from the dealer. Rather, he needs something from me: money. And he needs it badly. For that reason, I don't want to think about his offer. I want him to think about mine.

I know, MacMacMac. I know... I'm just not used to bargaining. It'd certainly be different if we were talking about a more expensive acoustic grand (or, let's say, a car), but for a digital or hybrid piano? I guess we're just not doing this too often, here in Switzerland. Or maybe it's just me?

On the other hand, I'm very happy with my dealer: I'll be able to give back the K-300 Aures I've been renting for three months now, getting an NV10 in return. The dealer is as understanding as he is accommodating, he's even offering me a 5-year payment plan (in case I want to buy the piano later), which he usually offers for acoustic instruments only, instead of a 3-year payment plan, which he usually offers for digital and hybrid pianos. This, of course, reduces the monthly rental fee massively. So I am happy, and I'm sure he is happy as well. Aren't those the best deals anyway?

Nevertheless, MacMacMac: I know you're right. In principle. :-)


Kawai Novus NV10; Yamaha P-515
Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2983899 05/25/20 08:38 PM
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Our Local dealer Is having a warehouse sale this week so I was able to spend some more time on the NU1X. One thing I definitely noticed was the pronounced escapement on the the Nu1x. I played it for about 20 minutes and was shocked at the loud note syndrome. I was able to recreate it several times. Not sure if it had the new firmware??????
Was also able to play with the N1. No loud notes and what a beauty! But at a price. I immediately went and played the clp645 ( which I own ). sound is a little more muted but it compares really well at a fraction of the price.
The hybrids are beautiful pianos but in my opinion only, they are not worth the price. I will not take the chance on an nu1x until the loud note problem is completely solved. Just my opinion.

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2984317 05/26/20 06:19 PM
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I will not call myself a professional but I was a music major in the University and my major instrument was piano smile
I own a N1 and I am very happy with the actions of the piano. It's not exactly the same as a real acoustic grand piano but I would say it feels quite close to one. It is very sensitive, responses very well and I think I've managed to learn and improve my techniques on my N1.

And about the sound, I do not use the built-in sound because I think it sounds bad. Instead, I connect my N1 to my MacBook as a midi driver for my VST (virtual sound technology). I am using Garritan CFX and it creates beautiful sounds and I use a good pair of headphones to connect to my macbook while i practice. I have to say I have never enjoyed practicing sooo much. This is an example of how it sounds like (not me playing, but it's also N1 + Garritan CFX) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHncfQhmWi8

If you do not use the built-in sound/speakers like me, I think the smartest thing is the buy the cheapest one among the hybrid (as I believe they more or less have the same actions, as far as I know, correct me if I am mistaken). You're buying the hybrid for the actions, not the sounds. You can do something else to fix the sound. So just go and sit in front of a N1/N1X/N2/N3X and spend some time playing on it and see if you like the actions.

Last edited by kiwibd; 05/26/20 06:29 PM.
Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2984399 05/27/20 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 1957
Our Local dealer Is having a warehouse sale this week so I was able to spend some more time on the NU1X. One thing I definitely noticed was the pronounced escapement on the the Nu1x. I played it for about 20 minutes and was shocked at the loud note syndrome. I was able to recreate it several times. Not sure if it had the new firmware??????
...

Hi 1957, I think it would be of great interest if we get to know which firmware version this NU1X has.
If it's V2.1 (I think that's the most newest) I would be very disappointet.
I am waiting for the CLP-700 series to be released to choose between a CLP-745 and the NU1X.
Thanks.


Cheers!
Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2984478 05/27/20 07:57 AM
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1957, be advised that the ‘warehouse’ sales event is a sales trick. Piano dealers always have some clearance, warehouse, family-and-friends so-called special event going on. The best way to get a good deal is to first, understand that the MSRPs are inflated; second, get a feel for how much the instruments are actually selling for (“D.P. prices paid“ is a good source), and as Mac says, ‘always keep in mind that the dealer needs your money more than you need his piano’.

Also, if you’ve already tested the instrument, don’t be afraid of shopping around neighboring states. Some here have gotten phenomenal deals -over the phone/online- this way.

P.S.

I don’t have anything against dealers; as a matter of fact, I’ve dealt with a few straight-shooters who are willing to be fair, and still make it work.
I understand that this industry is struggling, and perhaps sometimes this can force dealers into taking a more aggressive approach; but in the end, we also have to look out for ourselves, and saving a few bucks on a piano here, and a few bucks on a fridge there, can help fatten little Timmy’s college fund.

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
Pete14 #2984500 05/27/20 09:13 AM
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I am very aware of these dealers sales tactics and know what this piano should sell for at a "good" price. I was merely making the observation that the loud note issue was prevalent on a brand new unboxed piano. Quite frankly, in my opinion it's not worth the risk to spend a substantial amount of money for a product which still has an obvious defect.
Perhaps Yamaha will get it fixed in their next generation NU1s.

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2984509 05/27/20 09:34 AM
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FWIW, keep in mind that the instrument you tried right out of the box might’ve been sitting in a ‘warehouse’ for a very long time and perhaps this is why it doesn’t have the new firmware?

Now, if you confirmed that this instrument does have the new firmware, then yes, that would be concerning.

Based on some members’ posts it seemed like the firmware had significantly improved upon the loud-note issue.

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
Pete14 #2984518 05/27/20 09:46 AM
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agreed!

Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
kiwibd #2984630 05/27/20 01:24 PM
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Hi Kiwibd. Is it ok if I private message you to know how you connected your piano to VST? I have a Yamaha AG N2 and I want to explore VST Garritan CFX. I have a Macbook with just USB C connection.

I have no clue which cables to use and how to connect those. Do I need a MIDI to USB I can get off of ebay/ amazon? Also, where did you buy the software Garritan CFX? Can I also use the the native speakers of the piano to produce the Garritan CFX?

If anyone can help guide me I would appreciate it. Sorry I'm totally clueless here.


Thank you


Yamaha AvantGrand N2 | Yamaha CLP-645 | Yamaha P-140s
Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2984638 05/27/20 01:38 PM
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You can use a direct USB connection instead of using a MIDI to USB adaptor. But such a link can produce ground loop noise if you connect also a sound card to the AUX-IN of the AvantGrand. Using MIDI outputs can get rid of such noise but you can use ground loop filters too.


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Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
navi9187 #2984885 05/28/20 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by navi9187
Hi Kiwibd. Is it ok if I private message you to know how you connected your piano to VST? I have a Yamaha AG N2 and I want to explore VST Garritan CFX. I have a Macbook with just USB C connection.

I have no clue which cables to use and how to connect those. Do I need a MIDI to USB I can get off of ebay/ amazon? Also, where did you buy the software Garritan CFX? Can I also use the the native speakers of the piano to produce the Garritan CFX?

If anyone can help guide me I would appreciate it. Sorry I'm totally clueless here.


Thank you

feel free to message me. To answer in short, i use the "iconnectivity-mio" (midi to usb) and then connect it with a USB-C adaptor, then to my macbook. But i guess there are cables for direct midi to USB C connections.


To get the cheapest deal, I bought the CFX lite version from the official website of Garritan CFX, and then upgraded it to CFX full (It's cheaper that way).

You can surely use the native speakers but it might not sound good. In this case you need cables to connect your Macbook to your N2, and you need to turn off the original sound of your N2 so that your N2 will only play the sound from your Macbook when you play on it.

Last edited by kiwibd; 05/28/20 06:30 AM.
Re: Help deciding on a Yamaha hybrid?
conanima #2984886 05/28/20 06:35 AM
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To whom it may concern:

Grantouch ‘GT7’ on eBay for $3,999. This instrument even has a dampp-chaser system installed; so yes, if you’re near California I’d recommend checking it out.
It’s a beauty, and the owner says it’s in ‘excellent’ condition.

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