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Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Harpuia #2984266 05/26/20 04:23 PM
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And they had CFX sale at 2018 Black Friday. The pattern is only one piano for Black Friday. An there are 3 they never sold on Black Fridays yet.

Last edited by VladK; 05/26/20 04:26 PM.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
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Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Harpuia #2984294 05/26/20 05:33 PM
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Does the introductory price also expire on June 2?

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Harpuia #2984348 05/26/20 09:22 PM
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Here is what VSL rep Ben wrote in vi-control forum:
"The intro price should last until the end of June.
Yes, after the intro sale it will be part of the bundle, but the intro price is better then the bundle completion price will be."


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
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Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Harpuia #2984359 05/26/20 09:50 PM
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Thank you, VladK. Decisions....

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
20/20 Vision #2984367 05/26/20 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Originally Posted by KevinM
Interesting, I didn't enjoy the demos that much, while I liked the Vienna Imperial and Concert D demos. As a consequence I might keep to my original plan before I was distracted by the potential of BI, but I'm waiting to hear any comments from those who have bought and tested it out.

I’m in the same boat, Kevin. What to do...

What do you mean? What to do? If it's not enjoyable, simply don't buy it?

Have you tried the Pianoteq demo? You might find it more enjoyable and you could go that route instead...

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
navindra #2984375 05/26/20 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Originally Posted by KevinM
Interesting, I didn't enjoy the demos that much, while I liked the Vienna Imperial and Concert D demos. As a consequence I might keep to my original plan before I was distracted by the potential of BI, but I'm waiting to hear any comments from those who have bought and tested it out.

I’m in the same boat, Kevin. What to do...

What do you mean? What to do? If it's not enjoyable, simply don't buy it?

Have you tried the Pianoteq demo? You might find it more enjoyable and you could go that route instead...

What to do because I was intending to get the Steinway 274D, but now have a decision to make between the two. why so touchy?

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
20/20 Vision #2984379 05/26/20 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
What to do because I was intending to get the Steinway 274D, but now have a decision to make between the two. why so touchy?

I see, I'm simply fascinated by your dilemma, while also gleaning whatever I can learn about the different options for piano music production.

If something isn't enjoyable, what would be the purpose in buying it? Is it just a GAS syndrome? Or maximizing an investment and/or sunk costs?

Have you tried Pianoteq? It's extremely impressive and certainly enjoyable. You might get a ton of mileage out of it.

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
navindra #2984404 05/27/20 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
What to do because I was intending to get the Steinway 274D, but now have a decision to make between the two. why so touchy?

I see, I'm simply fascinated by your dilemma, while also gleaning whatever I can learn about the different options for piano music production.

If something isn't enjoyable, what would be the purpose in buying it? Is it just a GAS syndrome? Or maximizing an investment and/or sunk costs?

Have you tried Pianoteq? It's extremely impressive and certainly enjoyable. You might get a ton of mileage out of it.

I know, I’m also trying to learn the different options. I wouldn’t call it GAS on my part because I only have one vst. I certainly wouldn’t be looking to buy something that isn’t enjoyable. I’ve been considering the 274D for a month now but this Bösendorfer is making me hesitate. I guess we’ll never know until we try. I just hope my laptop is capable.

Eventually, I will give pianoteq a try. I certainly think it is the future and it takes up a lot less in resources. But I figure pianoteq 7 is around the corner so I’ll wait.

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
20/20 Vision #2984407 05/27/20 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
I know, I’m also trying to learn the different options. I wouldn’t call it GAS on my part because I only have one vst. I certainly wouldn’t be looking to buy something that isn’t enjoyable. I’ve been considering the 274D for a month now but this Bösendorfer is making me hesitate. I guess we’ll never know until we try. I just hope my laptop is capable.

Eventually, I will give pianoteq a try. I certainly think it is the future and it takes up a lot less in resources. But I figure pianoteq 7 is around the corner so I’ll wait.

If you want another opinion, I listened to the Bösendorfer demo and I don't like it either. It's just a lot of noise and marketing being thrown around, as far as I can tell. 5 billion samples per thousand mics per second sure sounds impressive on paper, but ultimately lacks in musicality.

Maybe you could play the Star Wars Imperial theme on it, but then what?

More seriously, the Pianoteq demo is free and extremely generous in what it allows. Trivial to install, with no software protection dongles from the 1980s required, or anything like that... Tons of different piano emulations. It may well be the perfect cure to help you decide, all for the low price of free.

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Harpuia #2984408 05/27/20 03:38 AM
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Sampled pianos are honest. A Bösendorfer was sampled. A Bösendorfer is heard.

Pianoteq is egotistical. They say it’s a Steinway, Grotrian, Blüthner and whatnot but Pianoteq always prevails because it’s only Pianoteq that can be heard.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/27/20 03:42 AM.

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Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
navindra #2984410 05/27/20 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
I know, I’m also trying to learn the different options. I wouldn’t call it GAS on my part because I only have one vst. I certainly wouldn’t be looking to buy something that isn’t enjoyable. I’ve been considering the 274D for a month now but this Bösendorfer is making me hesitate. I guess we’ll never know until we try. I just hope my laptop is capable.

Eventually, I will give pianoteq a try. I certainly think it is the future and it takes up a lot less in resources. But I figure pianoteq 7 is around the corner so I’ll wait.

If you want another opinion, I listened to the Bösendorfer demo and I don't like it either. It's just a lot of noise and marketing being thrown around, as far as I can tell. 5 billion samples per thousand mics per second sure sounds impressive on paper, but ultimately lacks in musicality.

Maybe you could play the Star Wars Imperial theme on it, but then what?

More seriously, the Pianoteq demo is free and extremely generous in what it allows. Trivial to install, with no software protection dongles from the 1980s required, or anything like that... Tons of different piano emulations. It may well be the perfect cure to help you decide, all for the low price of free.

LOL! Thanks, Navindra. I welcome and value all opinions. Yes, pianoteq certainly has much to offer and I agree, I dislike large GB hog software. I will take a closer look at pianoteq, but the concern is it’s timbre. From what I’ve heard in videos, the tone is a bit synthetic to me. Perhaps version 7 will change all of that so I figured I’d wait. Software shouldn’t be so complicated so as to require a super Uber-type computer just to run properly. I’m dismayed at the problems another current poster is having just to run the 274D properly. And his rig has 32GB RAM, yet still can’t get the thing to work. Nevertheless, we shall see.

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
CyberGene #2984413 05/27/20 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Sampled pianos are honest. A Bösendorfer was sampled. A Bösendorfer is heard.

Pianoteq is egotistical. They say it’s a Steinway, Grotrian, Blüthner and whatnot but Pianoteq always prevails because it’s only Pianoteq that can be heard.

That's a bit simplified. In reality, with sampling you don't hear a Bösendorfer. You hear a Bösendorfer through some specific microphones, through some analog to digital conversion through some digital operations, through some digital to analog conversion, through some loudspeakers or headphones.

Is sampling honest? Well ...


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
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Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
QuasiUnaFantasia #2984415 05/27/20 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Sampled pianos are honest. A Bösendorfer was sampled. A Bösendorfer is heard.

Pianoteq is egotistical. They say it’s a Steinway, Grotrian, Blüthner and whatnot but Pianoteq always prevails because it’s only Pianoteq that can be heard.

That's a bit simplified. In reality, with sampling you don't hear a Bösendorfer. You hear a Bösendorfer through some specific microphones, through some analog to digital conversion through some digital operations, through some digital to analog conversion, through some loudspeakers or headphones.

Is sampling honest? Well ...

Much more than pianoteq. I agree with CyberGene. It always sounds like Pianoteq, and it has some resemblance of Roland sound as well is some aspects, some specific sound characteristics typical for modelled piano.

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
QuasiUnaFantasia #2984419 05/27/20 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Is sampling honest? Well ...

Technically, all VIRTUAL Instruments are not honest unless a listener stands by the acoustic piano and hear the sound directly with his ears. The question of whether sampling is honest is a topic that comes up when compared to modeling.

Is Modeling more honest than Sampling? This is a very subjective matter.
Personally, I think that Pianoteq is a piano of the brand 'Pianoteq', named Steinway or Bechstein, but for Pianoteq lovers, Pianoteq is a transformational genius that can be either 'Steinway' or 'Bechstein'. In short, it may or may not be honest depending on the point of view.

However what's important is that it's just not right to deny others' tastes easily. Even this post is about the new Synchron Pianos. Who instigated the fight between sampling and modelling? I like the playability and liveliness of Pianoteq, but I don't like some excessive lovers.
The two technologies above are the property of piano lovers, which needs to be developed complementaryly.

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Harpuia #2984454 05/27/20 06:43 AM
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Is modelling more honest than sampling ?

With sampling, we have a chain : mic, preamp, ADC, DAC, speakers.

With modelling, I suppose we gave a longer chain : mic, preamp, ADC, compute parameters, synthesis, DAC, speakers. Then for each notes, the result should be less honest.

However, the advanced synthesis of Pianoteq is interesting when resonance are involved. Sympathetic resonance are hard to record on a sampler. I have tried to simulate an harmonic pedal with Synthogy... Pianoteq was far above. Some sampled piano have sustain pedal down samples. It can’t be more accurate, but if we release the pedal, the played samples are still full of harmonics as if the pedal was down.

With today’s samples (20 layers or more), the timbre varies each 3 MIDI levels or less which can be considered as enough.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/27/20 06:44 AM.

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Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Frédéric L #2984460 05/27/20 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Is modelling more honest than sampling ?

With sampling, we have a chain : mic, preamp, ADC, DAC, speakers.

With modelling, I suppose we gave a longer chain : mic, preamp, ADC, compute parameters, synthesis, DAC, speakers. Then for each notes, the result should be less honest.

I am not trying to position modelling above sampling, I'm simply trying to dispel the myth that sampling gives us the sound of the acoustical instrument. Not even a professional recording of piano playing, as heard from a CD, gives us the true sound of the acoustic. Only the acoustic instrument itself can give us that.

By the way, in your sampling chain you forgot digital processing (equalizers etc.) For modelling, the microphone-preamp-ADC subchain is not strictly necessary (but it is of course part of Pianoteq).

For the record: I use Pianoteq some of the time, but sampled sounds most of the time. I believe Pianoteq has the possibility to surpass sampling at some point in the future, but for now I find it obviously less "realistic" than e.g. Garritan CFX.


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Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Harpuia #2984473 05/27/20 07:40 AM
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Sometimes VI lovers talk about their favorite VI's resonance, overtones, and many other mechanisms. But is it right if the outcome of the detailed mechanism doesn't feel good to someone?

I feel synthetic to Pianoteq, too, but like the awesome piano mechanism and the lively sound of it as I said before. For those who don't like it entirely, however, the detailed explanation of such detailed mechanisms can't engrave on their heart. They don't refuse to recognize Modartt's skills in such outstanding mechanisms. They all know. But they just don't like the result. The detailed mechanism is just the process and what we ultimately want is the sound of the piano itself we hear and feel directly. Because each person feels different, there are just those who like pianoteq and those who don't like it as a piano sound in VI's field.

I'm not saying which technology is excellent. I'm saying that everyone can be different and understandable in terms of music.
There is no need to compete with each other here. This post's topic is a new Synchron Piano.
Each person play his favorite VI and be satisfied with it. That's it.

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Harpuia #2984505 05/27/20 09:21 AM
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I just like a plano sound when the sound inspires me, and is playable at the same time. So far pianoteq hasn't done that for me, but of course it's playability is great

Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
angmyu #2984534 05/27/20 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by angmyu
Sometimes VI lovers talk about their favorite VI's resonance, overtones, and many other mechanisms. But is it right if the outcome of the detailed mechanism doesn't feel good to someone.
Agreed, I don't care if a piano sample/model is sent to the moon and back, what matters is the end result.

I've been listening to the demos for the Boesendorfer (feel I have to write it this way, the o with two points above it, gets scrambled on the webserver, or something) and the sound is indeed lovely. Very deep.

But man, the prices of the VSL pianos, as others have pointed out. About 400€ the full library, and that's even a discounted price. Add to that an SSD, and we're close to 500€, for one piano!

Boesendorfer Imperial is good, but is it five times as good as the ca. 100€ libraries, some of which I own? Not sure about that.

Not saying that VSL doesn't need to make a profit, but they make Pianoteq look good now. Not sure if they make it sound good, maybe.

I mean, if one would want two Synchron libraries, full version of both, the price is even higher than for the Pianoteq Pro Studio Bundle, which includes every single Pianoteq model in existance.

Pianoteq sounds the way it sounds, nothing I can say about it, that hasn't already been said, but for the price you have to pay, maybe it isn't all that bad. At least, I'll give it to Modartt, that their customes are getting a lot for their money.


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Re: New Synchron Piano Releasing Tomorrow?
Harpuia #2984586 05/27/20 11:44 AM
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Honest, dishonest.. Chains, samples, models...

There are three last but not least devices in all these chains: human ears, body, and brain. And these 3 devices are decisive factor in what we hear, what we like, and what we don't.

We hear acoustic waves with ears and body, and we listen with our brain. Our brain receives data from ears and body, understands it, evaluates, remembers, and responds. And all future sounds are perceived based on this human's previous history.

I keep the rest of human sensory and cental nervous systems, and hormones produced, aside. For simplicity ;-)


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
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