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Questions on music teachers
#2983211 05/24/20 11:19 AM
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I am looking for music teachers and have three questions:

1. I often find that "classical" teachers often do not teach how to play by ear. All that they really focus on is playing from the partitura. For me.personally, it is much easier to learn music if I also play by ear.
I have an urge to experiment and create my own arrangements of tunes.
Sometimes I like to play melodies by ear instead using sheet musig.
How much should a good teacher focus on playing by ear?

2.when people learn differen instruments is it good to have the same teacher for many instruments or should it be different teachers?
Eg you sing with one teacher, play piano with another and so on.

3. Can you learn different kinds of music when you take lessons? Can you learn both sacred music and dance music at the same time? Sacred music includes the studying of the 8 church modes.
Dance music includes eg polka, snoa, minuet and polska.
It seems like you need a lot of time in order to learn all of this.

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Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2983267 05/24/20 12:36 PM
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Different teachers have different skills. You _might_ find someone who could teach singing, piano, and guitar -- and do them all for both "classical" and "jazz" styles --

. . . but most teachers (and musicians) aren't that competent, or that flexible.

The good ones know what their limits are.

I had an interesting time studying Tim Richards' "Improvising Blues Piano", while taking singing lessons with someone who was a professional jazz singer and teacher. She told me about a piano student of hers whom she sent to another teacher for classical piano --

. . . "He was too good for me."

So the best thing you could do is _ask questions_:

. . . Do you teach ear-training (which includes playing melodies and harmony
. . . . . "by ear") ?

. . . Do you teach improvisation?

. . . Do you teach playing from a lead sheet ?

Don't expect to master all of music quickly (= in one lifetime), and don't expect to learn it all from one person. There's a chuch organist in my choir, and I'd be happy to learn church modes and hymnody from her. I wouldn't ask her to teach me rock-n-roll piano.


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Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2983520 05/25/20 05:17 AM
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How do you know if the teacher is really honest with you? Some just say that they are good at something for the money. Others really do not understand you.
Playing by ear means different things to different people.
How do I even know that we talk about the same thing?

Is it really true that one can find teachers who cannot play by ear? Or is it simply that they never were taught how to use it in their teaching?
Can it be hard to teach it?
To me the purpose of a teacher is simply to help the student find his own musicallity. You do not even teach technique. You help the student find his natural technique.

Have you ever taught any students to play eg Bwv anh 114 with accompaniment or chords in LH?
If so, how did you do it?

Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2983638 05/25/20 10:56 AM
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(How do you know if a company is really honest with you? Some just say their product is good at something for the money. Others tell you what they want you to want, to make you think/feel that you want it now even if you didn't want it before.)

I'm jabbing at marketing departments there but seriously, how do you judge the trustworthiness of a person in general?

Many prospective and current students view "playing by ear" as finding the right note (pitch) at the right time (rhythm), and I have explained to many that it is a LOT more than that. Some people think "practice" is playing through a piece as fast as you can once or twice with no regard to technical or musical detail. To find out if you're talking about the same thing, you have to talk about the thing.

Originally Posted by Manne janne
To me the purpose of a teacher is simply to help the student find his own musicallity. You do not even teach technique. You help the student find his natural technique.
I disagree. I absolutely teach technique because musicality comes from physical execution. My purpose is help students gain the necessary tools (skills) and if their "natural" way is skill-limiting for whatever music/musicality they want to play/achieve in the future, then I need to address it - unless of course the student is aware and content of that and in some cases it might be fine to skip that area of technique-building.

Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2983774 05/25/20 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
How do you know if the teacher is really honest with you? Some just say that they are good at something for the money. Others really do not understand you.
Playing by ear means different things to different people.
How do I even know that we talk about the same thing?

Is it really true that one can find teachers who cannot play by ear? Or is it simply that they never were taught how to use it in their teaching?
Can it be hard to teach it?
To me the purpose of a teacher is simply to help the student find his own musicallity. You do not even teach technique. You help the student find his natural technique.

Have you ever taught any students to play eg Bwv anh 114 with accompaniment or chords in LH?
If so, how did you do it?
Are you sure going with a teacher is the best route for you? If you are not concerned with being taught technique, if you want to learn some very divergent styles that a single teacher is unlikely to offer, and if you're not sure you trust the teacher in the first place, then perhaps self-teaching--using the appropriate on-line instruction videos, where available, is the best path for you.


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Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2983791 05/25/20 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
I am looking for music teachers and have three questions:

1. I often find that "classical" teachers often do not teach how to play by ear. All that they really focus on is playing from the partitura. For me.personally, it is much easier to learn music if I also play by ear.
I have an urge to experiment and create my own arrangements of tunes.
Sometimes I like to play melodies by ear instead using sheet musig.
How much should a good teacher focus on playing by ear?
From your many posts on this subject in several threads, it's obvious you just want to go your own way, and jumping from one thing to another on a whim.

You don't need a teacher, certainly not a classical teacher (like the ones who taught Leif Ove Andsnes and Håvard Gimse) who will certainly insist on keeping you on track.

You need to do lots of listening, lots of playing and copying what you heard. And notate down what you heard (or think you heard). You need to learn music theory to help with harmony. You don't need a teacher.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2983885 05/25/20 08:04 PM
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Is this a first? People recommending don’t get a teacher?


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Re: Questions on music teachers
WeakLeftHand #2983891 05/25/20 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Is this a first? People recommending don’t get a teacher?
Only in the Piano Teachers Forum, not the ABF of course....... smirk


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Questions on music teachers
bennevis #2983892 05/25/20 08:21 PM
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To unpack, and offer my own thoughts (FWIW) --

Originally Posted by bennevis
. . .
From your many posts on this subject in several threads, it's obvious you just want to go your own way, and jumping from one thing to another on a whim.

Some people take better to "disciplined learning", than others. I'm hesitant to judge the OP's dedication and drive and talent. All of those are relevant.

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You don't need a teacher, certainly not a classical teacher (like the ones who taught Leif Ove Andsnes and Håvard Gimse) who will certainly insist on keeping you on track.

+1.

Quote
You need to do lots of listening, lots of playing and copying what you heard. And notate down what you heard (or think you heard). You need to learn music theory to help with harmony.

That's a good summary of how a lot of musicians learned jazz and pop.

Quote
You don't need a teacher.

But there are teachers -- I'm thinking about Berklee and other jazz-oriented schools -- who _do_ teach those things. Or (to put it differently), guide their students to learn them. They're probably helpful, to students who want to follow that path. Berklee has been around a while, and first-class musicians have come out of it.

Just because training isn't classical training, doesn't mean that it's easy, or disorganized. The OP might do well to look at local community-college (or longer) jazz programs, and find a teacher through one of them.

Last edited by Charles Cohen; 05/25/20 08:24 PM.

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Re: Questions on music teachers
Charles Cohen #2983895 05/25/20 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Quote
You don't need a teacher.

But there are teachers -- I'm thinking about Berklee and other jazz-oriented schools -- who _do_ teach those things. Or (to put it differently), guide their students to learn them. They're probably helpful, to students who want to follow that path. Berklee has been around a while, and first-class musicians have come out of it.

Just because training isn't classical training, doesn't mean that it's easy, or disorganized. The OP might do well to look at local community-college (or longer) jazz programs, and find a teacher through one of them.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the OP has ever mentioned the wish to play jazz - he's into playing accordion dance music and hymns and making his own arrangements of them.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Questions on music teachers
bennevis #2984030 05/26/20 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Quote
You don't need a teacher.

But there are teachers -- I'm thinking about Berklee and other jazz-oriented schools -- who _do_ teach those things. Or (to put it differently), guide their students to learn them. They're probably helpful, to students who want to follow that path. Berklee has been around a while, and first-class musicians have come out of it.

Just because training isn't classical training, doesn't mean that it's easy, or disorganized. The OP might do well to look at local community-college (or longer) jazz programs, and find a teacher through one of them.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the OP has ever mentioned the wish to play jazz - he's into playing accordion dance music and hymns and making his own arrangements of them.
Accordion dance music? There are many peoole who play dance music on the piano. It really works.
Jazz? I am not that interested in it. Peoole assume that you cannot play by ear in "classical" music. Some think it is forbidden. You can actuallly try to find ot the chords to Bwv anh 114 and play an arrangement. Many teachers seem to forget this. Organist are ussually better at playing by ear it seems. All the organists I have met can play by ear.

Technique? Sure teachers should focus on it but...in my experience it is very hard to just teach it. How do you exolain how to play a Do-Mi-Sol-Do-Mi-Sol arpeggio? You can give a lot of help but in the end it is the student who has to find out how to play it correctly? How are you going to teach the exact thing the thumb should do and so on? I have been told that you get a good technique by listening.

Last edited by Manne janne; 05/26/20 06:46 AM.
Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2984056 05/26/20 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Quote
You don't need a teacher.

But there are teachers -- I'm thinking about Berklee and other jazz-oriented schools -- who _do_ teach those things. Or (to put it differently), guide their students to learn them. They're probably helpful, to students who want to follow that path. Berklee has been around a while, and first-class musicians have come out of it.

Just because training isn't classical training, doesn't mean that it's easy, or disorganized. The OP might do well to look at local community-college (or longer) jazz programs, and find a teacher through one of them.
I could be wrong, but I don't think the OP has ever mentioned the wish to play jazz - he's into playing accordion dance music and hymns and making his own arrangements of them.
Accordion dance music? There are many peoole who play dance music on the piano. It really works.
Jazz? I am not that interested in it. Peoole assume that you cannot play by ear in "classical" music. Some think it is forbidden. You can actuallly try to find ot the chords to Bwv anh 114 and play an arrangement. Many teachers seem to forget this. Organist are ussually better at playing by ear it seems. All the organists I have met can play by ear.

Technique? Sure teachers should focus on it but...in my experience it is very hard to just teach it. How do you exolain how to play a Do-Mi-Sol-Do-Mi-Sol arpeggio? You can give a lot of help but in the end it is the student who has to find out how to play it correctly? How are you going to teach the exact thing the thumb should do and so on? I have been told that you get a good technique by listening.


If you want to take lessons you need to be more open to recognizing that a teacher CAN teach; as a student, you need to be able to assume a teacher can teach you how to exactly move your thumb for scales and arpeggios. Your statement that it cannot be taught and is up to the student is incorrect and self-limiting. You need to let go of ‘what you have been told’ and be willing to accept there are problems with ‘what you have been told’.

Quite frankly, I agree you should just self study and forget lessons at the present time. If you ever get to the point where you acknowledge the instructor can teach technique and you need professional help, then
Reconsider. You need to let go of the ‘what I have heards’. I don’t believe you are willing to do that right now.


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Re: Questions on music teachers
WeakLeftHand #2984076 05/26/20 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Is this a first? People recommending don’t get a teacher?

Anyone who shows up saying "I don't want to do what a teacher tells me to do" would probably be recommended to not engage a teacher.


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Re: Questions on music teachers
malkin #2984129 05/26/20 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Is this a first? People recommending don’t get a teacher?

Anyone who shows up saying "I don't want to do what a teacher tells me to do" would probably be recommended to not engage a teacher.

I agree. You cannot be taught if you’re not open to it.


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Re: Questions on music teachers
Stubbie #2984154 05/26/20 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by Manne janne
How do you know if the teacher is really honest with you? Some just say that they are good at something for the money. Others really do not understand you.
Playing by ear means different things to different people.
How do I even know that we talk about the same thing?

Is it really true that one can find teachers who cannot play by ear? Or is it simply that they never were taught how to use it in their teaching?
Can it be hard to teach it?
To me the purpose of a teacher is simply to help the student find his own musicallity. You do not even teach technique. You help the student find his natural technique.

Have you ever taught any students to play eg Bwv anh 114 with accompaniment or chords in LH?
If so, how did you do it?
Are you sure going with a teacher is the best route for you? If you are not concerned with being taught technique, if you want to learn some very divergent styles that a single teacher is unlikely to offer, and if you're not sure you trust the teacher in the first place, then perhaps self-teaching--using the appropriate on-line instruction videos, where available, is the best path for you.

Excellent advice.


Piano teacher, BA Music, MTNA member
Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2984290 05/26/20 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Technique? Sure teachers should focus on it but...in my experience it is very hard to just teach it. How do you exolain how to play a Do-Mi-Sol-Do-Mi-Sol arpeggio? You can give a lot of help but in the end it is the student who has to find out how to play it correctly? How are you going to teach the exact thing the thumb should do and so on? I have been told that you get a good technique by listening.

You have been told? By whom?

It is not hard to teach technique, but the student needs to listen and follow directions. If you tend to be confrontational or ask excessive number of questions instead of doing the actual work, then you won't get very far in lessons.

Re: Questions on music teachers
AZNpiano #2984344 05/26/20 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Manne janne
Technique? Sure teachers should focus on it but...in my experience it is very hard to just teach it. How do you exolain how to play a Do-Mi-Sol-Do-Mi-Sol arpeggio? You can give a lot of help but in the end it is the student who has to find out how to play it correctly? How are you going to teach the exact thing the thumb should do and so on? I have been told that you get a good technique by listening.

You have been told? By whom?

It is not hard to teach technique, but the student needs to listen and follow directions. If you tend to be confrontational or ask excessive number of questions instead of doing the actual work, then you won't get very far in lessons.

The student needs to follow directions during routine practice!


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Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2984468 05/27/20 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Manne janne
Technique? Sure teachers should focus on it but...in my experience it is very hard to just teach it.
Can you explain what you mean by your experience? Since you are the learner, I assume that your experience is not where you are trying to teach it. (or?) Or is this experience where you were with a teacher(s) where there was failure to teach you technique? If so, can you give examples?

We can also see "technique" as being different things. In my mind, when a beginner has her first lesson, and the teacher has that student sit at a good height and distance from the piano, insisting every time the student comes in that this is done, establishing that habit, this is the very first foundation for technique. You may know why. The first time pedal is used, there is the timing between hand and foot, listening and hearing, and also how the foot moves on the pedal. When playing distant keys, does the student still try to sit ramrod straight, or does the student know how to lean the body (without straining not to lose balance, and still able to use that pedal with ease?). Does this jive with your picture of technique? Or how do you picture it?

Quote
How do you explain how to play a Do-Mi-Sol-Do-Mi-Sol arpeggio? You can give a lot of help but in the end it is the student who has to find out how to play it correctly? How are you going to teach the exact thing the thumb should do and so on? I have been told that you get a good technique by listening.
I imagine that most teachers here give guidance for this. It would be hard to explain. If I hire an architect to design a house for me, I expect the architect will be able to do so, but I wouldn't have the architect explain how he will do it.

Re: Questions on music teachers
Manne janne #2985139 05/28/20 06:36 PM
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I just want to learn how to shoot 3 pointers.
Why is my coach making me run laps and practice dribbling?
I know best what I want!


Learning as I teach.
Re: Questions on music teachers
missbelle #2985370 05/29/20 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by missbelle
I just want to learn how to shoot 3 pointers.
Why is my coach making me run laps and practice dribbling?
I know best what I want!

Exactly.


Learner

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