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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983593 05/25/20 08:55 AM
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Perhaps the thread should have been labelled "OPINION POLL: DO YOU THINK PIANOS COST TOO MUCH? OR NOT?"

Because "overpriced" is just an opinion, and there are two side to that, right?

So make it a poll, and somebody can tally the total. (I'm not volunteering.)

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983597 05/25/20 09:19 AM
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But we’d also need a second poll to ask whether digital pianos are “overprized”. The term deserves to be adopted, given the occasional hero-worship of particular pianos at this forum...


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983602 05/25/20 09:35 AM
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Digital pianos are priced.

Usually.

That much we can say for sure.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Pete14 #2983660 05/25/20 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
So I wonder, is there more to the sauce than just lots of tomatoes?

I have read a guy which has tried a Gewa (unlooped samples), and he wasn’t impressed, but it can be due to the amplification (I don’t know the model he tried, and even Gewa don’t communicate on the amplification of their models).

Then what counts is the result, but when everything is well done, the memory can limit further progress.


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
U3piano #2983663 05/25/20 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by U3piano
I mean common... Kawai, Yamaha.. anyone, at least make a deal with best service and throw in the galaxy vintage D in one of those dp's, it's just 5 or 6GB, not too demanding on hardware and sounds and plays pretty darn good!

You want Yamaha or Kawai to replace their favorite piano sound and replace it by a concurrent one (Steinway). This will take more time than to wait for the replacement of the 3 LED digits. (Which is still there on the newest and expensive N1X).

Perhaps Casio and their Hamburg/Vienna/Berlin sounds will be more open minded. wink

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/25/20 11:50 AM.

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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983679 05/25/20 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ubu
I don't get how criticizing the (in my opinion) excessively high price of pianos turns me into a communist. I myself buy and sell things every day, i work, i get paid, i pay. I have sense of what is approximately the value of the things and the cost of producing them. You pay for the materials, you pay labour, machines, buildings, you get all the expenses, you have it, simple marhs. No politics involved. It would be nice if someone from inside yamaha or Kawai or roland would tell us how much money they cost to get done 1 unit of any of their pianos. Of course that's not going to happen.
Not sure how unit cost to produce is relevant to selling price in a free market economy?

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983707 05/25/20 01:07 PM
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Overpriced... can't tell. Have the prices of digital pianos gone up recently? For sure!

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983718 05/25/20 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ubu
Just cheking prices for new refrigerators. It is ridiculous. A refrigerator is much more expensive to make, regarding materials and labour, than a digital piano. But for the price of a very good refrigerator you afford an entry digital piano at most. I think even considering top digitals as kawai mp11 or similar ones, they should retail for 500€ and that is enough for everyone making profit. 2000€ is crazy
Materials for a digital amount to how much? 50€ max. Labour? All they made in china, let's say another 50. Technology? The most advanced high.tech thing is the same touch screen you find in any smartphone since 2010. Samples are nothing cutting edge. So I think that the cost per unit in any 2000€ digital piano is no more than 150€ for the maker. How crazy is that they retail for 2000 and more? Maybe marketing guys are paid as sport stars. They must be genius for being able to make so much people accept those absurd prices as something normal.

Oh i talked about refrigerators, but you can take sofas and it is even worse. For the price of a humble roland fp30 you get a sofa that could be in the royal suite of a 5 stars hotel.

I honestly don't know how you came up with this comparison but do you need support for your sofa? e.g. its legs stop being legs after sitting on your sofa for a while? May be new sofas have a bug detection software in them?!

Comparing potatoes and oranges are never constructive. Every person needs a fridge these days. Even if you go to the poorest areas around the world you see at least a crap refrigerator.

Do you need a Digital Piano to survive? Or can you store your food in a Digital Piano? Or do you sit on your DP? I don't think so! At least I don't do it!

The product categories and demands and functionalities are way different so your reasoning and argument is not going to work.


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
MacMacMac #2983762 05/25/20 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
This seems like a lot of ill-informed nonsense ...
Originally Posted by Ubu
Just cheking prices for new refrigerators. It is ridiculous. A refrigerator is much more expensive to make, regarding materials and labour, than a digital piano. But for the price of a very good refrigerator you afford an entry digital piano at most. I think even considering top digitals as kawai mp11 or similar ones, they should retail for 500€ and that is enough for everyone making profit. 2000€ is crazy
Materials for a digital amount to how much? 50€ max. Labour? All they made in china, let's say another 50. Technology? The most advanced high.tech thing is the same touch screen you find in any smartphone since 2010. Samples are nothing cutting edge. So I think that the cost per unit in any 2000€ digital piano is no more than 150€ for the maker. How crazy is that they retail for 2000 and more? Maybe marketing guys are paid as sport stars. They must be genius for being able to make so much people accept those absurd prices as something normal.
You claim something costs too much, but offer no substantiation.

Then you make up a bunch of numbers, none of which are supported by evidence.

You omit most of the costs of operation ... perhaps because you know nothing about operating a business.

And finally you overlook the fact that these pianos are selling well ... which means that people are agreeable to the price.
Perhaps you are not. But others are. That means the prices are acceptable.

I'll call your post a rant. Pure and simple.
+1.

OP knows nothing of how pricing works. Completely left out the cost of: R&D, marketing, sales, warranty, on-going firmware upgrade etc. etc.

And, the most fundamental rule of pricing - the pricing is what the market bears. It doesn't need to have any correlation with the actual cost of the item. Case in point: look at the airline ticket price now and 6 months ago.

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 05/25/20 02:15 PM.

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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
major_key_minor #2983777 05/25/20 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
I most certainly would prefer the acoustic over the hybrid. Here in Denmark it would be easy to find a used grand in fine condition at the same price as a new N1X or NV-10.

EDIT: I just checked a Danish website, where people advertise their stuff for sale, and today there was a Gaveau grand advertised for 267 EUR (abot 300 USD). Judging by the pictures, it is in good condition. But even allowing for quite a lot of work done to it, the price would still fall short of the price for a new hybrid.

I was thinking Kawai NV5 vs K300 for example (very similarly priced), but yes there is a used market for grand pianos too if one has the space. :)👍


Originally Posted by major_key_minor
Originally Posted by FrankCox
I can play it loudly or softly depending on the volume setting (and still control the relative volume of what I'm playing)

Imo, i think this is actually bad practice. I didn't realize this before but ever since i got an acoustic, I noticed I have shitty dynamics because there is no volume control knob. If you ever plan on playing on an acoustic, you should consider this a disadvantage not an advantage unless you play the digital at max volume control and leave the volume to your fingers.

So, as someone who owns a P-515 and a K300... how would you describe, to someone who's only ever played a digital piano, the difference in sound/feel and aural/tactile pleasure? I know, not a fair comparison due to the rather small speakers on your slab, however I guess you've used headphones too (and a fair few of us prefer them to on-board speakers anyway).

Originally Posted by U3piano
So this is now another acoustic vs digital thread? Let me end that with the conclusion that it usually comes down to: It's best to have both, if possible.

Agreed... unless you're lucky enough to live alone, and where nobody could ever hear your piano if you just fancied playing at 3am.

Last edited by OscarRamsey; 05/25/20 03:02 PM.

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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
OscarRamsey #2983817 05/25/20 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by OscarRamsey
So, as someone who owns a P-515 and a K300... how would you describe, to someone who's only ever played a digital piano, the difference in sound/feel and aural/tactile pleasure? I know, not a fair comparison due to the rather small speakers on your slab, however I guess you've used headphones too (and a fair few of us prefer them to on-board speakers anyway).

If you have never played an acoustic, I would say you are in for a treat as I was first time I tried it. The vibrations you feel as you press every key, the nice deep tone, ... etc. Imo, with an acoustic, you feel very connected with what you are playing. This is my personal experience and your experience might differ. I don't want to turn this into another acoustic vs. digital debate as I'm honestly also tired of getting into those debates. I got the P-515 for practice at night because i want to be considerate to my neighbors. However, I play the acoustic every chance I get. They both have their place.

Bottom line, you need to try it for yourself and decide.


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
FrankCox #2984726 05/27/20 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FrankCox
Actually, I wouldn't want an acoustic piano even if I got a good one for free somehow.
I’m pretty sure if someone offered you a Bosendorfer 225 for free, you would accept it.


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2984813 05/27/20 10:30 PM
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Well, ok.... MAYBE I could find some room for it.... smile


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
zenof #2984881 05/28/20 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by zenof
I suspect that Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Kawai and Casio are all in bed with one another (price fixing, etc) as they are all Japanese companies.

Who can tell? The competition may be nearer fixed than perfect, but I doubt it. But one thing is clear, which is that all the good digital piano makers that sell in a reasonable price range are Japanese - the ones you mention, in fact. No one in America, Europe or anywhere else seems remotely able to compete with Yamaha, Kawai etc.

Occasionally a European or American model comes out but they are almost always vastly higher priced from Alpha down to Physis or even Nord. Or they are beset with reliability problems like GEM line (discontinued).

Conclusion: without these Japaese companies which you accuse of price fixing, we would be paying a lot more (perhaps several times) for digital pianos.


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
OscarRamsey #2984889 05/28/20 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by OscarRamsey
So, as someone who owns a P-515 and a K300... how would you describe, to someone who's only ever played a digital piano, the difference in sound/feel and aural/tactile pleasure?
There is one essential thing when you are playing acoustic piano - how you extract the sound. The way you making the sound produces different colors of the sound. When you play DP you always got the only sample. Other words, somebody pressed a key on an acoustic piano, recorded one and now you play this sample each time. Of course, DP manufactures tends to implement a wide range of tools to help you to vary the color of the sample, but still.
That's why it is important to play an acoustic piano when a kid (or adult) learns to play piano.
Btw, piano modelling engine could make sound different way but not present day. Nowdays piano modelling techniques are still far away from the perfect.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2984894 05/28/20 06:59 AM
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You say that with sampled pianos ‘someone else pressed a key on an acoustic; this event was recorded, and then when you hit a key a reproduction of that recording is rendered.’ (I’m paraphrasing).

By this metric is it fair to say that when playing the new VSL concoction one is reproducing a recording made by a “robot” and therefore devoid of any humanity?

If this is the case, take cover now! The scavengers are coming for you!

If this is not what you meant, I apologize (English is not my first language). blush

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Pete14 #2984909 05/28/20 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
You say that with sampled pianos ‘someone else pressed a key on an acoustic; this event was recorded, and then when you hit a key a reproduction of that recording is rendered.’ (I’m paraphrasing).

By this metric is it fair to say that when playing the new VSL concoction one is reproducing a recording made by a “robot” and therefore devoid of any humanity?

If this is the case, take cover now! The scavengers are coming for you!

If this is not what you meant, I apologize (English is not my first language). blush

For those of you playing at home, Sarcasm is Pete's first language ... wink


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2984913 05/28/20 08:27 AM
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blush

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Sweelinck #2984924 05/28/20 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I’m pretty sure if someone offered you a Bosendorfer 225 for free, you would accept it.

I know I would. But one mark on the cabinet and it goes back!

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