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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983399 05/24/20 06:10 PM
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So this is now another acoustic vs digital thread? Let me end that with the conclusion that it usually comes down to: It's best to have both, if possible.


Also, I don't think I can really go along with "if people buy them, it means the price is right". If people really can't have an acoustic for whatever reason, but want to play piano, it just means they do not have other options, so they will buy a digital, even if the price was ridiculously high.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983400 05/24/20 06:13 PM
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I don't think they're over prized or over priced. A bottom end Clav can be had for £1k; the same as 20 years ago. The quality is far better now, but the price should be perhaps X 2.5.

We simply must pay more!


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983401 05/24/20 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ubu
I don't get how criticizing the (in my opinion) excessively high price of pianos turns me into a communist. I myself buy and sell things every day, i work, i get paid, i pay. I have sense of what is approximately the value of the things and the cost of producing them. You pay for the materials, you pay labour, machines, buildings, you get all the expenses, you have it, simple marhs. No politics involved. It would be nice if someone from inside yamaha or Kawai or roland would tell us how much money they cost to get done 1 unit of any of their pianos. Of course that's not going to happen.

It's not that you are a communist, just that you are expressing sharp criticism when you 1) have no right to criticize, 2) know nothing about the topic

1) any company or individual is allowed to sell what they produce at whatever they cost they want. The SELLER sets the price, because it is THEIR property. It is your choice whether you want to buy it or not. But you have absolutely no right to criticize them if you think the price is too high - you are not entitled to purchase it at whatever cost you find reasonable. What's next, you come to me and tell me how much my house is worth, and if I don't sell it to you at that price, you start to complain about it?

2) your simple math doesn't cut it, and no, Yamaha won't tell you how much their DPs cost to manufacture. But running a company and selling innovative products is a bit more complicated than that. If you cared to do a research, you would know that Yamaha had a 11% operating profit last year. This involves all their businesses, but it gives you a sense that they are not making 80% profit on their products. If you are interested in their costs in more detail, you can look at their annual report. Then you can also consider the cost of the distributor - transportation, warranty, labor cost, taxes, and many more.

But please do let me know when you produced your state-of-art digital piano at the cost of $150, I am willing to pay $200, then you make a hefty ~33% profit on the deal, 3 times Yamaha makes.

Last edited by Patronus; 05/24/20 06:16 PM.
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983402 05/24/20 06:16 PM
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@peterws: Nice play. You're getting serious competition in the sarcasm department from Pete14. It's good to see that you're keeping pace. smile

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983408 05/24/20 06:31 PM
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The problem with DPs is that they are virtually the same as they were 20 years ago, both in keyboard action and sample quality.
They are still basic romplers with ever so slightly increased sample size at best.

It's not a problem that a DP costs 2k-3k or more, the problem is they still sound pretty bad, or as bad as they did nearly 20 years ago.
The sample sizes are still often in XX-XXX megabyte range often - which is frankly ridiculous.

Whenever a DP doesn't have sample size in it's spec sheet, it's almost guaranteed that it's embarrassingly tiny.

I suspect that Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Kawai and Casio are all in bed with one another (price fixing, etc) as they are all Japanese companies.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983417 05/24/20 07:28 PM
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@zenof: Interesting observations. I guess Alpha doesn't want to compete with them.

Alpha has a trendy/modern piano priced at the high end. Unfortunately it doesn't perform in its price league.

I guess that's un-price fixing, eh? smile

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983437 05/24/20 08:20 PM
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Zenof, taking in inflation, which was 100% over the past twenty years (3% compounded). Current DPs are selling at half their price of twenty years ago.


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983503 05/25/20 03:40 AM
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Well ... 3% compounded will double the figure in 24 years, not 20. And inflation around here has been a bit below 3% for some time. So I think some recalculation is in order.

But your point is still clear. Pianos are getting cheaper.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Patronus #2983521 05/25/20 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Patronus
Originally Posted by Ubu
I don't get how criticizing the (in my opinion) excessively high price of pianos turns me into a communist. I myself buy and sell things every day, i work, i get paid, i pay. I have sense of what is approximately the value of the things and the cost of producing them. You pay for the materials, you pay labour, machines, buildings, you get all the expenses, you have it, simple marhs. No politics involved. It would be nice if someone from inside yamaha or Kawai or roland would tell us how much money they cost to get done 1 unit of any of their pianos. Of course that's not going to happen.

It's not that you are a communist, just that you are expressing sharp criticism when you 1) have no right to criticize, 2) know nothing about the topic

1) any company or individual is allowed to sell what they produce at whatever they cost they want. The SELLER sets the price, because it is THEIR property. It is your choice whether you want to buy it or not. But you have absolutely no right to criticize them if you think the price is too high - you are not entitled to purchase it at whatever cost you find reasonable. What's next, you come to me and tell me how much my house is worth, and if I don't sell it to you at that price, you start to complain about it?

2) your simple math doesn't cut it, and no, Yamaha won't tell you how much their DPs cost to manufacture. But running a company and selling innovative products is a bit more complicated than that. If you cared to do a research, you would know that Yamaha had a 11% operating profit last year. This involves all their businesses, but it gives you a sense that they are not making 80% profit on their products. If you are interested in their costs in more detail, you can look at their annual report. Then you can also consider the cost of the distributor - transportation, warranty, labor cost, taxes, and many more.

But please do let me know when you produced your state-of-art digital piano at the cost of $150, I am willing to pay $200, then you make a hefty ~33% profit on the deal, 3 times Yamaha makes.
I respect your opinion even if i disagree and even is written in tough words. But saying i have no right to criticize is going to far. Of course i have all the right to criticize. I don't want to think what kind of world would be this one if we couldn't criticize.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983523 05/25/20 05:35 AM
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My gut feeling is that Patronus by accident made an unintended claim. In a free society anyone is free to criticize anything, and I certainly feel like criticizing Yamaha, and especially Kawai, for their high hybrid prices. What the heck are these companies thinking? (Of course, maybe they actually have calculated everything just right, and these high prices yield them maximum income.)

What I (pretentiously) think was Patronus intention was to point out (which was also done) that no one has the right to demand being sold any given item at the price deemed "fair" by the prospective buyer.


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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983531 05/25/20 06:06 AM
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The N1X strikes me as great value for money.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983538 05/25/20 06:26 AM
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You are right Ubu and QuasiUnaFantasia, criticize wasn't the right word for me to use. What I meant is exactly how QuasiUnaFantasia put it - the seller sets the price, whether we like it or not, and it is just right like that.

It seems that I am the defender of DPs here, but I have to disagree with Zenof's notion, that DPs have been "virtually the same" for the past 20 years. I am sorry but I simply find this ridiculous (sorry for the strong word, but this statement is just way too bold and contradicts empirical evidence). The DPs I tried 20 years ago were simply garbage, and today I find them quite amazing for practice. I don't get what's the problem with MBs of sound samples. That's plenty of information, and you don't need GBs to record samples. The sound will not be the same as on an acoustic because it comes from speakers (+soundboard on some models), not because they were lazy to add 20 MB more of sound sample.

Last edited by Patronus; 05/25/20 06:28 AM.
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983554 05/25/20 07:02 AM
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Kawai advertises their Harmonic Imaging XL to have longer samples and render the attack more precisely. Gewa piano and Korg Krome have near GB memory which can store unlooped samples. Yamaha Silent GB1 and SH where presented with different memory (SH being the better).

I don’t argue that more memory is synonymous of better quality, but at a given point, better quality needs more memory. With too few memory, you have shorter samples, less sampled notes (with stretching), and/or less velocity layers.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/25/20 07:03 AM.

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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983564 05/25/20 07:26 AM
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I just think it's a bit frustrating that it's 2020, 5G and artificial intelligence are a fact, and we are still having to discuss "looped samples", and the fact that "1 Gb" is still actually a lot of memory for a dp. I mean, the average smartphone nowadays has a multicore processor, 128gb storage and 6gb of ram.

I mean common... Kawai, Yamaha.. anyone, at least make a deal with best service and throw in the galaxy vintage D in one of those dp's, it's just 5 or 6GB, not too demanding on hardware and sounds and plays pretty darn good!

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983566 05/25/20 07:28 AM
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I tend to argue in favor of more memory for the samples, but then I see someone playing a Beethoven sonata -without much hesitation- on a Grantouch DGT2, which uses 30 MB, and I start to doubt my own conviction.

So I wonder, is there more to the sauce than just lots of tomatoes?

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Pete14 #2983568 05/25/20 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I tend to argue in favor of more memory for the samples, but then I see someone playing a Beethoven sonata -without much hesitation- on a Grantouch DGT2, which uses 30 MB, and I start to doubt my own conviction

Well, yes, but really good pianists could even make a fridge sound good, but that's not a fair point of view to amateurs/hobbyists like me!

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
U3piano #2983578 05/25/20 08:18 AM
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OK. You've thrown down the gauntlet!
Originally Posted by U3piano
... really good pianists could even make a fridge sound good, but that's not a fair point of view to amateurs/hobbyists like me!

So try this. A three-manual fridge. Two keyboards above, and a reduced size keyboard below just for junior.[Linked Image]

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983583 05/25/20 08:25 AM
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My washing machine plays Schubert when it's done. It's a common feature in Samsung.

https://youtu.be/ANdz2Q2Tygg

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983588 05/25/20 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ubu
My washing machine plays Schubert when it's done. It's a common feature in Samsung.

https://youtu.be/ANdz2Q2Tygg

OMG, that sounds terrible! I guess the washing machine has not been yet updated with 6Gb of music memory and Sennheiser speakers?

Now seriously, going back to the original theme, I think when we talk about prices we may tend to mix two different things:

- EXPENSIVE, which has quite a lot of subjective feel into it.

- OVERPRICED, which can be much more objectively explained with economic/business theories.

Example: Is a 2000$ Specialized Stumpjumper ST 29 mountain bike EXPENSIVE? Is it grossly OVERPRICED?

Last edited by ECBetancor; 05/25/20 08:46 AM.

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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2983591 05/25/20 08:46 AM
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MacMacMac amazing. I see many possibilities, for example let's say it opens only after you got your set daily practice time in!

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